DENVER | Main Development Thread #7 - Page 117

Matt · #**2321** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 2:40 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighRanch

As they say, "All hat and no cattle"

TheNightfly · #**2322** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 3:18 AM**

Any project idea Geller's parcels are involved with eventually dies. I think the Denver Post, denverinfill, or any other news outlet should simply ignore him when he comes out with his arousing pie in the sky proposals. It's sad and I hate to put this out there, but as long as that guys is alive, we're going to have some gaping holes in our downtown fabric.

SirLucasTheGreat · #**2323** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 3:58 AM**

As a relatively new member of this thread, I am not uniquely familiar with Buzz Geller. What is it about him that seems to doom every project that he is involved with?

rds70 · #**2324** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 4:12 AM**

It looks like the Denver Post article has been updated with some quotes from Tom Ragonetti. I tend to believe him, since I have worked with him for years

Denver · #**2325** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 4:19 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds70

It looks like the Denver Post article has been updated with some quotes from Tom Ragonetti. I tend to believe him, since I have worked with him for years

If they are working with Ragonetti they are serious. I don't trust Buzz Geller any more than I can throw him.

I am mainly surprised that Geller would quote himself to the Denver Post about this. That type of action is something that would make me never want to work with him. You should never throw a a potential business partner under the bus if you truly want to close a deal.

BG918 · #**2326** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 2:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tykendo

The news piece was way over blown with fear mongering. First off, it isn't going to affect any view. The Front range goes on for almost 200 miles. Move a little to each side and you can see plenty. Stupid argument. Another guy said it was out of scale for the neighborhood. WHATTTTTTT? Get real dude. It's right in the heart of the freakin' financial center of the city. Then there was the argument that all these historic buildings will be lost. Hellloooooooo, it's going on a parking lot. This news report was Smallville USA. This is Denver, Colorado. Growth is coming. Building up isn't the problem, building out is.

I love this gem from the 9News comments about this tower:

Quote:

Denver downtown will be communist party soon . because of too laws and bans and very police strictly. Throw away all homeless people from Denver downtown last year
Do you think that I will go Denver downtown? I say I never never will.... I don't support the devil's tax

CherryCreek · #**2327** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 3:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BG918

I love this gem from the 9News comments about this tower:

There's so much uninformed NIMBYism around. I really worry that the 1% growth limitation initiative has a REAL chance of passing. I hear tons of people complaining all the time about growth and I think people might be suckers for an easy "solution."

MountainRush · #**2328** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 4:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Thanks!

I actually took a panorama with much closer resolution that has a larger extent, since that one photo didn't showcase all the new development. The full size is 80MB and 30,000 pixels wide, so let it load in your browser before scrolling across. I highly recommend checking out the full size pano.

Preview:

FULL SIZE (80MB, BUT TOTALLY WORTH IT!): https://www.flickr.com/photos/767519...43190/sizes/o/

Great work Matt!

COtoOC · #**2329** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 4:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

There's so much uninformed NIMBYism around. I really worry that the 1% growth limitation initiative has a REAL chance of passing. I hear tons of people complaining all the time about growth and I think people might be suckers for an easy "solution."

I feel the same way. And this is an issue that attracts the far left and far right, oddly. I know people in both categories and they all hate anything being built anywhere.

twister244 · #**2330** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 4:35 PM**

Well, in other news of things that have died a quick death:

https://businessden.com/2018/02/27/h...-plans-fizzle/

Too bad, I really liked the Drive Train project. Appears it will probably just end up being yet another basic new apartment complex on Brighton......

CherryCreek · #**2331** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 4:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244

Well, in other news of things that have died a quick death:

https://businessden.com/2018/02/27/h...-plans-fizzle/

Too bad, I really liked the Drive Train project. Appears it will probably just end up being yet another basic new apartment complex on Brighton......

I agree. Sounds like another MONSTER apartment complex to replace it.

Early conceptual drawings have been released:

CastleScott · #**2332** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 6:08 PM**

Gotta ecko awesome photo Matt!!

As for these dying projects-well as most of us know the economy is slowing some so things will slow and maybe later next year or 2020 we'll see things get moving again. That 81 story project-I loved it too as did most of us but I had a bad gut feeling about it from the get-go however.

DenBronco8 · #**2333** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 6:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CastleScott

Gotta ecko awesome photo Matt!!

As for these dying projects-well as most of us know the economy is slowing some so things will slow and maybe later next year or 2020 we'll see things get moving again. That 81 story project-I loved it too as did most of us but I had a bad gut feeling about it from the get-go however.

Well it sounds like there is a small chance of it still getting built, according to the statement by Ragonetti. He said it was all a misunderstanding and they still plan to close...so who knows at this point.

Robert.hampton · #**2334** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 6:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenBronco8

Well it sounds like there is a small chance of it still getting built, according to the statement by Ragonetti. He said it was all a misunderstanding and they still plan to close...so who knows at this point.

In businessden today Geller said it certainly was not a misunderstanding -- they just wanted unacceptable terms to extend the closing- https://businessden.com/2018/02/27/d...ls-close-land/

Complete clown show on all sides.

TakeFive · #**2335** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 8:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244

Well, in other news of things that have died a quick death:

https://businessden.com/2018/02/27/h...-plans-fizzle/

Too bad, I really liked the Drive Train project. Appears it will probably just end up being yet another basic new apartment complex on Brighton......

Yeah, me too. What an amazing clustermess story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

In businessden today Geller said it certainly was not a misunderstanding -- they just wanted unacceptable terms to extend the closing- https://businessden.com/2018/02/27/d...ls-close-land/

Complete clown show on all sides.

Interesting article in BusinessDen.

It doesn't sound like Buzz did anything wrong. Party offers to buy site with no financing contingency (obviously), no need for any zoning contingency, and puts a good faith deposit down. If it's 10% then that's a helluva a lot of money to leave on the table; even it it was only 5% that's still a bundle. As for Buzz, it's not like he'd be late for a wedding if they didn't close; for him it was no harm no foul and he's now $850,000(?) richer for his time. That works out to a good living wage per hour for his time I'd think.

The Dirt · #**2336** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 9:10 PM**

He went to the press instead of working things out with buyers privately and coming out with a joint (or at least a mutually agreed-upon) press statement. Sounds like he threw them under the bus. Statements like "I think they’ve done Denver and Paradise Land Company a huge favor,” he said. “They put this piece under the limelight." also paint him as an opportunist. If I was a developer, I'd steer clear of people like him.

mr1138 · #**2337** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 9:38 PM**

It may seem strange to many of us, because we are urban nerds who like seeing things built, but I think The Dirt calls it exactly as it is by pointing to the line "They put this piece under the limelight" as painting Geller as an opportunist. It seems clear that, to him, there is no joy in seeing his properties developed. It's all simply money. And with the amount of vacant lots Downtown with "D" district zoning, this is a perfectly rational choice for him to make.

I know people don't always like to hear it, but speculating on vacant land based on zoning build-out potential can be quite profitable. It's part of the reason the DURA era was so destructive - they cleared FAR more land than could reasonably be re-absorbed in a short amount of time (something Ken pointed out in his CPR interview last May). In doing so, it gave speculators like Buzz Geller ample opportunity to sit on vacant land and see continuous monetary gain while investing absolutely nothing into that property in the process. And there's no reason to expect he can't simply continue to do this. If you take no pleasure in urban development, then why develop at all when you can make more money simply continuing to sit?

I know I've pointed this out before, but Strong Towns does a pretty good job of explaining the economics of this phenomenon.

To paraphrase... "On a walking tour there, we strolled through blocks and blocks of gaps -- empty and underutilized lots -- just off of their core downtown..." "It was more property than would ever be utilized as T-5 [it would take 54,000-100,000 new residents in a relatively small city to maximize buildout of every single T-5 property] and it was sitting there, high priced and waiting for the right buyer to come by and make the owner rich..." "And the property owner had good reason to find this wait rational. It was reported to me that prices had been going up dramatically..." "With the land consistently going up in value and the cost to hold it minimal -- it is being taxed as raw land -- why not wait for a windfall?"

twister244 · #**2338** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 9:49 PM**

All good points on the Geller site......

This guy has no history of delivering lots to be developed, so why expect any differently from this point forward?

On a more positive note, came across a couple cool videos for the new WTC. The promo video was posted fairly recently (last month or two). The other from last fall, which is a great animation showing the proposed development in a bit more detail than just renderings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szcAirAIWkw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S3nOh_vMW0

CastleScott · #**2339** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 10:22 PM**

^ Those videos are great!!

mojiferous · #**2340** Posted **Feb 27, 2018, 10:39 PM**

It's really maddening that land bankers like Geller, the Dikeous, and a few other notorious family trusts (the Cooks come to mind) make decent livings on huge blighted areas of unmaintained surface lots. At this point I don't think any of them can claim that they're trying to develop anything, considering how many other projects are being developed in the surrounding areas. They're just waiting for the "perfect" offer on EVERY lot they own, for someone rich enough (or dumb enough) to pay more than what the neighboring lot went for (and now that the neighboring lot isn't empty, that price just goes higher)

It's like they're gaslighting the entire city - once every few years they're involved in some amazing-looking proposal that's all pipe dream but gives them an excuse to claim they're land speculators and not slum lords.