PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II - Page 117

PHLJD13 · #**2321** Posted **Aug 6, 2023, 5:29 PM**

Perspective on the economic headwinds facing development projects not yet fully-underway in the City, including Alterra’s scrapped plans at 42nd and Market St:

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20230806.html

Dan1 · #**2322** Posted **Aug 6, 2023, 7:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHLJD13

Perspective on the economic headwinds facing development projects not yet fully-underway in the City, including Alterra’s scrapped plans at 42nd and Market St:

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20230806.html

Sad to see 42nd and Market delayed. I had suspected it given the lack of any progress at the site. Alterra is still working on 43rd and Chestnut, with the first floor going to an unnamed national grocery chain. I can't imagine they would've ever broken ground on 42nd and Market before the current project is finished unless they had absurd demand which they don't.

PHLtoNYC · #**2323** Posted **Aug 6, 2023, 8:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan1

Sad to see 42nd and Market delayed. I had suspected it given the lack of any progress at the site. Alterra is still working on 43rd and Chestnut, with the first floor going to an unnamed national grocery chain. I can't imagine they would've ever broken ground on 42nd and Market before the current project is finished unless they had absurd demand which they don't.

Alterra may also be focused on 1701 Market Street conversion (which I would much rather see move forward first).

The Inquirer article failed to research/mention that point, nothing new there.

cardeza · #**2324** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 1:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Alterra may also be focused on 1701 Market Street conversion (which I would much rather see move forward first).

The Inquirer article failed to research/mention that point, nothing new there.

I dont think its a conspiracy to be honest. What they are reporting on is actually happening and not really surprising considering interest rates and saturation of apts in some areas. Reporting that one conversion project may be advancing doesn't really negate all of that.

PHLtoNYC · #**2325** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 2:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardeza

I dont think its a conspiracy to be honest. What they are reporting on is actually happening and not really surprising considering interest rates and saturation of apts in some areas. Reporting that one conversion project may be advancing doesn't really negate all of that.

I didn't suggest a conspiracy or surprise at the slowdown. But the writer omitting a major planned conversion by Alterra after dedicating a lot of lines to Alterra shows a lack of research or general laziness (IMO)...

UrbanRevival · #**2326** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 2:46 PM**

The national, and really global, headwinds in real estate financing have been years in the making. It's much more expensive to develop anything now, and that goes for every city. And honestly I think it's healthy to slow the pace of development so that urban planning can catch up and recalibrate to a post-pandemic reality.

More specific to Philly, however, at least on the residential side, I still think the market fundamentals are still solid and primed for some sustainable level of construction:

- Faster job growth than most other major metros post-pandemic;

- A much more balanced construction-to-demand pipeline;

- Absorption is continuing in positive territory (absorption in Q2-23 for the Philly metro was 8th in the US (+2,700 units), right behind NYC: https://www.cbre.com/-/media/project...ly-figures.pdf);

- The best income-to-COL ratio in the Northeast Corridor; and

- The biggest feeder market for incoming transplants to Philly, the NYC metro area, now has the lowest vacancy in the US: https://commercialobserver.com/2023/...nycs-declines/

cardeza · #**2327** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 6:57 PM**

I was in charleston, SC and I have to say there main retail street appears to be in much better shape that Chestnut or Walnut- it was pretty amazing to see. My thinking is that the minimal shut downs in the south spared retail from the worst of things in terms of business recovery. I will also saw I didnt see any Gucci or LV stores and yet there were tons of well dressed, well to do people walking around with their branded store bags and plenty of those people had LV bags. It definitely came off as upscale even though it was a mixture of local shops and not quite ultra luxury brands. It would be interesting to see how retail corridors fared in states with aggressive lockdowns that lasted for many months vs southern states which had much shorter lockdowns, if any at all. All I know is there are no signs of COVID on their High Street.

Raja · #**2328** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 7:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardeza

I was in charleston, SC and I have to say there main retail street appears to be in much better shape that Chestnut or Walnut- it was pretty amazing to see. My thinking is that the minimal shut downs in the south spared retail from the worst of things in terms of business recovery. I will also saw I didnt see any Gucci or LV stores and yet there were tons of well dressed, well to do people walking around with their branded store bags and plenty of those people had LV bags. It definitely came off as upscale even though it was a mixture of local shops and not quite ultra luxury brands. It would be interesting to see how retail corridors fared in states with aggressive lockdowns that lasted for many months vs southern states which had much shorter lockdowns, if any at all. All I know is there are no signs of COVID on their High Street.

Charleston was already like this before COVID, but yeah, they were definitely a "net winner" in the Great 2020/2021 Migration. On the flip side, housing there is insane, and it's a place where the lower class has been pushed further and further north on the peninsula. It's actually become more segregated as a result.

UrbanRevival · #**2329** Posted **Aug 7, 2023, 8:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardeza

I was in charleston, SC and I have to say there main retail street appears to be in much better shape that Chestnut or Walnut- it was pretty amazing to see. My thinking is that the minimal shut downs in the south spared retail from the worst of things in terms of business recovery. I will also saw I didnt see any Gucci or LV stores and yet there were tons of well dressed, well to do people walking around with their branded store bags and plenty of those people had LV bags. It definitely came off as upscale even though it was a mixture of local shops and not quite ultra luxury brands. It would be interesting to see how retail corridors fared in states with aggressive lockdowns that lasted for many months vs southern states which had much shorter lockdowns, if any at all. All I know is there are no signs of COVID on their High Street.

I guess I'm inclined to immediately think of this as an apples-to-oranges comparison. Charleston essentially operates primarily as a HUGE tourist hub, nothing like major, cosmopolitan big city downtown. It's exactly the kind of "red state" locale that lockdown-fatigued Yankees relocated to during the COVID years.

It's certainly a pleasant little city, but it's incredibly niche and preppy. Its economy is basically powered only by high-end historic real estate and its retail/restaurant scene and feels like a one-trick "stuff rich white people like" pony. Very little depth beyond that, unfortunately.

Mtphilly · #**2330** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 10:17 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardeza

I was in charleston, SC and I have to say there main retail street appears to be in much better shape that Chestnut or Walnut- it was pretty amazing to see. My thinking is that the minimal shut downs in the south spared retail from the worst of things in terms of business recovery. I will also saw I didnt see any Gucci or LV stores and yet there were tons of well dressed, well to do people walking around with their branded store bags and plenty of those people had LV bags. It definitely came off as upscale even though it was a mixture of local shops and not quite ultra luxury brands. It would be interesting to see how retail corridors fared in states with aggressive lockdowns that lasted for many months vs southern states which had much shorter lockdowns, if any at all. All I know is there are no signs of COVID on their High Street.

It’s not exactly the same situation because Charleston doesn’t have a high end mall in its metro so King Street is their luxury retail center. I’m not saying Walnut Street shouldn’t be better but it has a lot more competition. Philly as a metro has a much more extensive luxury retail scene outside the city.

ScreamShatter · #**2331** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 11:38 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardeza

I was in charleston, SC and I have to say there main retail street appears to be in much better shape that Chestnut or Walnut- it was pretty amazing to see. My thinking is that the minimal shut downs in the south spared retail from the worst of things in terms of business recovery. I will also saw I didnt see any Gucci or LV stores and yet there were tons of well dressed, well to do people walking around with their branded store bags and plenty of those people had LV bags. It definitely came off as upscale even though it was a mixture of local shops and not quite ultra luxury brands. It would be interesting to see how retail corridors fared in states with aggressive lockdowns that lasted for many months vs southern states which had much shorter lockdowns, if any at all. All I know is there are no signs of COVID on their High Street.

They have both LV and Gucci in downtown Charleston. Lots of middle class Carolinians do weekend trips to Charleston to shop, eat, etc. It’s beloved. Philly seems to cater more to conventions, business travelers, etc and not as much to middle class families coming for a leisure weekend. Just my 2 cents.

cardeza · #**2332** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 12:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

They have both LV and Gucci in downtown Charleston. Lots of middle class Carolinians do weekend trips to Charleston to shop, eat, etc. It’s beloved. Philly seems to cater more to conventions, business travelers, etc and not as much to middle class families coming for a leisure weekend. Just my 2 cents.

oh wow, very interesting- I didnt see those stores- good to know. Not that I will be shopping at either. Considering the population, its a very nice commercial strip- much better than i would've expected.

cardeza · #**2333** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 12:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raja

Charleston was already like this before COVID, but yeah, they were definitely a "net winner" in the Great 2020/2021 Migration. On the flip side, housing there is insane, and it's a place where the lower class has been pushed further and further north on the peninsula. It's actually become more segregated as a result.

there definitely near zero diversity on the streets of downtown charleston. There were a few homeless but they were mainly in one of the parks and on a pier I walked through, you didn't see any on the streets per se. The main notable difference was the lack of vacancy in terms of retails spots in the historic area.

Gatorade_Jim · #**2334** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 1:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardeza

oh wow, very interesting- I didnt see those stores- good to know. Not that I will be shopping at either. Considering the population, its a very nice commercial strip- much better than i would've expected.

If you're at all interested you should read the book Walkable City by Jeff Speck. He talks a bit in the book about the effort Charleston put into making their downtown for people and not just cars. It didn't happen by accident.

skyhigh07 · #**2335** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 1:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardeza

I was in charleston, SC and I have to say there main retail street appears to be in much better shape that Chestnut or Walnut- it was pretty amazing to see. My thinking is that the minimal shut downs in the south spared retail from the worst of things in terms of business recovery. I will also saw I didnt see any Gucci or LV stores and yet there were tons of well dressed, well to do people walking around with their branded store bags and plenty of those people had LV bags. It definitely came off as upscale even though it was a mixture of local shops and not quite ultra luxury brands. It would be interesting to see how retail corridors fared in states with aggressive lockdowns that lasted for many months vs southern states which had much shorter lockdowns, if any at all. All I know is there are no signs of COVID on their High Street.

I was there during the height of Covid. The city never really shut down and everything was pretty much in full swing.

PHL10 · #**2336** Posted **Aug 8, 2023, 4:56 PM**

Quick rant...I appreciate that COVID had consequences but it's 2023 and it is absurd and maybe even a disgrace that you can't get a drink inside 30th Street Station.