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  #2301  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 3:55 AM
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Originally Posted by corynv View Post
Has there ever been a NHL relocated behind of Arena funding issues? Winnipeg and QC moved because of the weaker dollar, not because of arena issues. Atlanta not because of Arena Funding, but because of management issues, and being kicked out of their arena. They would have either had to go into hiatus if they wanted to keep playing in Atlanta while a new NHL level arena was being built. Hartford i'm not entirely sure why the moved so can't comment there.

Basically most relocations that happen in the NHL happen apart from arena funding. And idc about what happens in other leagues, since this is an NHL issue and we need to look at how the NHL has handled things, not other leagues.
That’s not entirely true. Both Winnipeg and Quebec played in outdated arenas and weren’t able to secure new buildings. Fortunately The CTC isn’t obsolete as those buildings were, so it’s not exactly a parallel situations.
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  #2302  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 4:47 AM
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Originally Posted by corynv View Post
Has there ever been a NHL relocated behind of Arena funding issues? Winnipeg and QC moved because of the weaker dollar, not because of arena issues. Atlanta not because of Arena Funding, but because of management issues, and being kicked out of their arena. They would have either had to go into hiatus if they wanted to keep playing in Atlanta while a new NHL level arena was being built. Hartford i'm not entirely sure why the moved so can't comment there.

Basically most relocations that happen in the NHL happen apart from arena funding. And idc about what happens in other leagues, since this is an NHL issue and we need to look at how the NHL has handled things, not other leagues.
Quebec and Winnipeg were definitely arena-related. In Hartford the arena one of the issues, along with low ticket sales and a lack of corporate support. New arenas were also part of the draw at the relocation destinations (including the return to Winnipegj. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with Ottawa’s arena building, but the attendance problems are seen as related to its location.
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  #2303  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 5:06 AM
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the arena isn't actually in Ottawa.
Um, you might want to get your facts straight when making arguments. The CTC might seem a long way out of town (24 km from Bank St.) but it is in the City of Ottawa. In fact it isn’t even close to city limits (the border, Ashton Station Rd, is 18 km further west).

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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
You think they can find a buyer and close the deal before the two month deadline?
No, but if the deal falls through, as I expect it will, the NCC will likely start a new bidding process, and that could take years, which is plenty of time to find a new buyer and work out a deal in principle with a developer.
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  #2304  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post



No, but if the deal falls through, as I expect it will, the NCC will likely start a new bidding process, and that could take years, which is plenty of time to find a new buyer and work out a deal in principle with a developer.
Why would we expect a different result the 2nd time around. In my the NCC’s concept is flawed.
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  #2305  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 5:32 PM
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Going back a week regarding our conversation around Kristmanson's end of term, LeBreton Flats' failure is certainly a good reason not to renew his contract. Whomever takes his place will be exploring whole new approaches to best redevelop the Flats. And the NCC likely won't approve another NHL arena proposal.

To add to the rumors, Kelly Egan was on the Rick Gibbons show on Friday and said they had received word (no proof though) that Desmarais and Devcore were still interested in buying the Sens. I Desmarais were to be part of an ownership group, I'm confident they would stay in Ottawa. If he and other partners could buy the Sens before the two month deadline, the deal could probably get the green light.
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  #2306  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 5:35 PM
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Um, you might want to get your facts straight when making arguments. The CTC might seem a long way out of town (24 km from Bank St.) but it is in the City of Ottawa. In fact it isn’t even close to city limits (the border, Ashton Station Rd, is 18 km further west).
Oh, I know full well where the City of Ottawa boundaries are. Anything beyond the Greenbelt isn't really Ottawa, IMO, and the sooner the Sens can move into urban Ottawa the sooner they'll become an actually relevant team in the city of Ottawa.

Until then they'll always be a fringe entity too difficult to get to on a weeknight for most Ottawa residents.
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  #2307  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 5:37 PM
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Can we salvage LeBreton, where dreams have gone to die for 50 years?

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: November 26, 2018


When LRT opens next spring, there will be two central stations — Bayview and Pimisi — book-ending 50 acres of nothing, the desolate flop that is LeBreton Flats.

It’s even shaped like a giant, crooked zero.

Last week’s dramatic news about the failed partnership between Ottawa Senators owner Eugene Melnyk and Trinity Development Group chairman John Ruddy is detailed in a $700-million lawsuit filed Friday.

It’s a searing document. In it, Melnyk takes a flamethrower to Ruddy and consultant Graham Bird, lobs a grenade into the mayor’s office, embarrasses the National Capital Commission, and paints Ottawa as a city run by a cadre of operatives hostile to his ambitions.

Lordy-boo-boo. Truth be, you need financing to build an NHL arena but you also need friends. When the dust settles, the NCC still owns the land; the city still has land-use control; the mayor is still the mayor and the Sens parent company still has no development experience.

Has this bomb not alienated Melnyk against the very forces that can make the deal happen?

Indeed, a cautious lawyer might counsel Mayor Jim Watson, Ruddy & Co. not to be in the same room as Melnyk, as long as legal matters are pending. On top of which, the Sens are skirmishing with the very newspaper you’re reading, as though everybody is the enemy.

The timing of the lawsuit, too, makes everyone look stupid. Thursday we had the NCC wringing its hands over “unresolved issues” in the partnership and the very next day news that the wheels had fallen off months ago, the bus was in the ditch and the house was burning down. And they all knew it, yet here was the NCC agreeing to a two-month delay, like we’d hit a speed bump, not driven off a cliff.

So, where to from here? Well, let’s start at the learning table.

The NCC spent four years on a process to have a single private consortium basically build a mini-city over a 10- to 20-year period, with an anchoring public use or two.

In hindsight, this was a mistake. The RendezVous LeBreton group was composed of several strong-willed business people who had never worked together to build a tool shed, let alone a $4-billion project of enormous complexity.

Build together? They couldn’t even plan together.

If we could have a redo — and basically, is this not where we’re at? — would it not make more sense to do the project in workable phases?

First, start with the public realm aspects of the project, which is the only thing people care about. Build the arena in a seamless link to the LRT, add the city’s new main library, then phase out any retail, restaurants, commercial buildings as the market allows. Use multiple developers, on an as-needed basis and let them earn the build with sharp designs.

And do the housing last. Or never. Let it evolve organically. Seriously, is there a shortage of condos in town? Instead, the NCC insisted on a grand vision for the whole site, giving us the ridiculous spectacle of car and beer museums and aquariums and Ripley’s this-and-that because these were “national interest” lands.

You know, even that’s baloney. This is not a site for showcasing “Canada to all Canadians.” It’s an imperative for the people of Ottawa, the very people the government stole the land from in the first place.

All of which is another way of saying this: You know who, like Melnyk, has “limited experience” in projects this size? The NCC. They’re just not good at large-scale commercial development and take forever to produce bad results.

There was a wonderful piece of insight from a little-known board member — by the way, who are any of these people? — Aditya Jha, who describes himself as a “serial entrepreneur.”

He pointed out the danger of trying to keep a business partnership together over a prolonged period of time, while referencing the NCC’s skill at “consultation” and fancy public expositions. (They do love a meeting, with simultaneous translation.)

“One side of me admires all of us, that we are so long on process and patience, and we are kind of short on reality.”

Boom!

We’re honestly at a point where we need to discuss whether the NCC is the wrong Crown corporation to handle this development. They’ve had plenty of time, plenty of talk, by plenty of smart people — so much, that the current CEO, the plan’s shepherd, is poised to depart in February.

Could it really be time, and it pains to even type the words, to start all over?

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or email [email protected]
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...e-for-50-years
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  #2308  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 5:56 PM
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What a fiasco! This is multi-year setback for the city. And to think this was in ruin for months and covered up. Another 50 years with an empty Lebreton Flats?
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  #2309  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Going back a week regarding our conversation around Kristmanson's end of term, LeBreton Flats' failure is certainly a good reason not to renew his contract. Whomever takes his place will be exploring whole new approaches to best redevelop the Flats. And the NCC likely won't approve another NHL arena proposal.
I have nothing against Kristmanson specifically, I just think people should not be entrenched in appointed positions for too long. If the government wants the NCC to be more representative nationally they should open up the chairmanship regularly.

At this point it's hard to imagine anything other than an arena going in there as an anchor destination. I doubt the federal government has an appetite for a new museum or relocating an old one there. This project is at an impasse unless they just set aside the land for the arena in a masterplan and develop the commercial/residential portion of it, but that puts the private funding for an arena more difficult in the future.

Sadly, I think this will also slightly affect the success of the future public library which has the westward gravitational shift of the core factored into its choice for the site.
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  #2310  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 8:04 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
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Wow, not sure if I am disappointed or surprised by all of this or not.

I tend to agree that land and project development are what Trinity does, it's unrealistic for Melnyk to think that Trinity would stop all other projects or do nothing BUT Lebreton moving forward. And as others have mentioned, if Trinity owns half the Lebreton site and is responsible for the capital and its development, its in their best interest that both projects go forward and succeed.

I did find it shockingly funny how one of the articles mentioned Melnyk asking Trinity to make him a partner or part developer of the 900 Albert site as well... Trust me buddy, you've already bitten more than you can handle.

It's not surprise that Lebreton was not going to get fully built out in 2 years.. this is a long term project. Trinity and Melnyk are supposed to be in a long-term business relationship to develop the site together.

I also don't get how all of this was basically known since 2015 and has just been sitting there, no progress, unresolved for 2-3 years? What a waste of time...
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  #2311  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2018, 9:57 PM
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To me the NCC should have asked for business plans as part of the bidding process: what legal agreements are in place, what revenues are expected, what costs are expected, how will elements be funded, what financing is in place, etc.

They probably would have received zero bids, but at least it would have told them this wasn't going to work.
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  #2312  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 12:02 AM
Marshsparrow Marshsparrow is offline
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so we'll be moving our central library next to a field for the forseeable future? The NCC needs to get out of Lebreton ASAP.
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  #2313  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 12:12 AM
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What a mess!

We could see nothing at lebreton for years now and that trinity development at 900 Albert is also a toss up. The only way out I can see is a sale of the sens. Any scenario that has Eugene still owning the team will mean nothing gets built.

That Pimisi station will be a white elephant except during Bluesfest. This thing is a colossal disaster for all involved-Sens, trinity, city and NCC.
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  #2314  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
To me the NCC should have asked for business plans as part of the bidding process: what legal agreements are in place, what revenues are expected, what costs are expected, how will elements be funded, what financing is in place, etc.

They probably would have received zero bids, but at least it would have told them this wasn't going to work.
I don't have the history and insight to the processes, procedures and policies of this government town as many of you do, however my simple perspective is:

1) The NCC had 50 years to prepare for this development bid... and apparently screwed it up royally. As the land owner, the NCC must accept full responsibility for it's failure.
2) Unrelated to this.. the NCC has sat on it's tail for the past 2 years as 24 Sussex rots into oblivion.

*** I need someone to tell me the Value-Add of the NCC to Ottawa. ***

As Phil235 mentioned in a previous post, and Kelly Egan mentioned in his article, I think the best path forward should be something like:

1) Someone (city, feds, ?) clean up the land for the Arena next year.. and give it to the Arena developer for free-ish (Hopefully something related to Desmarais/LaLiberté/Alfredsson combo :o)
2) Take a longer time with the rest and figure out some way to let it develop "organically".

I personally have no real issue giving at least the land for "free" to someone developing an arena. Yes.. there are the millionaire athletes and billionaire owners getting something for free... but every city worth it's salt has a downtown arena which can be used for all sorts of other events... and (even though I'm the textbook definition of a whiny, stingy taxpayer), I have no issue with some level of public support for this part of the project.
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  #2315  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 12:50 AM
Norman Bates Norman Bates is offline
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Originally Posted by daud View Post
What a mess!

We could see nothing at lebreton for years now and that trinity development at 900 Albert is also a toss up. The only way out I can see is a sale of the sens. Any scenario that has Eugene still owning the team will mean nothing gets built.

That Pimisi station will be a white elephant except during Bluesfest. This thing is a colossal disaster for all involved-Sens, trinity, city and NCC.
I agree with everything except Pimisi that I think will be heavily used by those commuting for work at Terasses and Portage.
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  #2316  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 12:51 AM
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How about this.

Clean up the land. Sell it at open auction.

Let the private sector do with it whatever it will want to do. The City can use zoning laws to enforce building standards or height limits or whatever else it wants.
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  #2317  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 1:08 AM
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How about this.

Clean up the land. Sell it at open auction.

Let the private sector do with it whatever it will want to do. The City can use zoning laws to enforce building standards or height limits or whatever else it wants.
The NCC has done that before, they end up with big box stores and townhouses.
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  #2318  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 2:04 AM
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Ottawa needs a public vision for LeBreton Flats, not a private one

Ken Rubin
Updated: November 26, 2018


This is not just another timeout on LeBreton Flats, in which the current players are benched, booted or rejuggled. This time, the game is over.

So let’s instead get going on a visionary, public-purposed plan for LeBreton.

Some “thanks” for this possibility must go to Ottawa Senators/Capital Sports Management Inc. owner Eugene Melnyk for effectively killing his downtown hockey arena project on LeBreton.

No thanks can go to the National Capital Commission’s bungled plan for a “competitive” private-sector selloff of this public land, for exclusive private development and gain. The NCC’s secretive role as a public developer needs to be drastically overhauled.

Governments, both local and federal, have for too long created abysmal results for the downtown capital area. Just look at the dismal wall-to-wall buildings found in downtown Ottawa and the destructive impact the Place du Portage government complex has had on downtown Gatineau.

Leaving developers in charge, such as John Ruddy’s Trinity Development Group, leads to developments like the sterile sports/condo/box store complex at Lansdowne. It gives such developers rights to put up more and higher buildings such as at 900 Albert Street where three 65-, 56- and 27- towers are getting underway.

You do not have to look far to see how government gives developers public lands and zoning help. A classic case is that five more Claridge condo towers are going up on LeBreton Flats. Claridge Inc. got this land from the NCC for a mere $8 million in 2004 after the NCC desperately approved Claridge as the only bid received. Then the NCC, after much delay, gave the go-ahead to build ugly designed condos.

You do not need Melynk’s unproven allegations in his recently filed law suit to conclude that Ottawa building projects can be highly influenced by developers, lobbyists and political allies, and the LeBreton planning process was no exception to this.

What people want, however, is a less loaded and better effort toward a more positive planning approach for the last remaining prime downtown land in Ottawa.

A lively, new downtown at LeBreton Flats could be different and exciting and have public purposes backed by creative plans. Private developers need not determine the fate of this prime public downtown land.

That means, for instance, not confining the joint federal-city library as part of a multi-storey high rise to a small city-owned property at 557-587 Wellington St. adjacent to LeBreton Flats. The library should instead be enlarged and moved and become the major grandly designed tenant anchor at LeBreton, with direct access to the Pimisi light rail transit station.

The library also needs to be part of a larger mandate for a community and national meeting and media communications place and an accessible, adjacent year-round event place. All of this would help make LeBreton Flats a destination. And right next to it would be the existing outdoor festival park.

Nor does the LeBreton area’s Indigenous experience need to be confined to a narrow strip of parkland along Wellington. That park, Pindigen Park, begins to create or reclaim Indigenous spaces and structures from Victoria Island to Chaudière Falls to LeBreton; it could help make the whole area a place with a renewed, edgy public and environmental purpose.

Such public purpose plans also would have room for affordable residences, interesting businesses and non-profits and include a meeting place for federal, provincial and territorial partners.

The public’s voice has been downplayed, with secrecy masking how development of the capital is run. Private expectations and entitlements should not be the basis to bring LeBreton alive.

The past voices of LeBreton Flats, be they Indigenous Peoples or the residents and businesses who, more than five decades ago, were expropriated and evicted need now to know a frontier meeting place and vibrant downtown centre can arise.

Ken Rubin is an award-winning access to information user and commentator who follows planning issues. He is reachable at kenrubin.ca

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...-a-private-one
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  #2319  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 3:14 AM
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I'm just sad

This reminds me of how disappointed everyone was when O'Brien cancelled the LRT project. That being said, the delay resulted in what is arguably a much better end result for the future of the city. Lebreton, Somerset House, Interprovincial Bridge/Tunnel......all great examples of how Ottawa is a dysfunctional city and can't have nice things. I really thought this was changing with LRT and the recent Ottawa "supertalls" approved or under construction. Melnyk isn't from Ottawa, he doesn't live in Ottawa, and doesn't care about Ottawa. The faster he sells the Sens and leaves town the better. I hear he's drinking again so won't be too long that we don't have to deal with him either way.
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  #2320  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2018, 3:24 AM
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The faster he sells the Sens and leaves town the better. I hear he's drinking again so won't be too long that we don't have to deal with him either way.
This sort of rhetoric has no place on this forum, at least IMO.

Probably better off avoiding people's personal lives whether speculating or not.
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