The Manitoba Provincial Politics Discussion

[thurmas]

Lots of potholes to fill and bus shacks to clean up tons of work for us here

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

The majority of users here might viscerally hate this current government but they are making all of us suckers work again one way or another.

LABOUR FORCE STATISTICS FOR JULY SHOW MANITOBA HAD LOWEST UNEMPLOYMENT RATE ON RECORD



You know with all this productivity we are providing the government at some point there's gotta be a reward for the citizens right?

Productivity providing for the government? Productivity rewards yours bosses and the owners of businesses. They are the ones that steal the surplus value you create in the form of profits. If you want to keep more of the value you create, they are the ones you’re going to have to take it from. A more democratic government and democratic workplaces are two ways of achieving that.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Productivity providing for the government? Productivity rewards yours bosses and the owners of businesses. They are the ones that steal the surplus value you create in the form of profits. If you want to keep more of the value you create, they are the ones you’re going to have to take it from. A more democratic government and democratic workplaces are two ways of achieving that.

Wow, thanks Karl!

[BariasEC]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Productivity providing for the government? Productivity rewards yours bosses and the owners of businesses. They are the ones that steal the surplus value you create in the form of profits. If you want to keep more of the value you create, they are the ones you’re going to have to take it from. A more democratic government and democratic workplaces are two ways of achieving that.

My business is not a democracy. I make the decisions based on what I believe is best while always closely following the rule of law.

There is no vote to remove me after some 4 years, I am almighty.
The better I do, the more taxes I pay. The more people I employ.

If someone doesn’t like it, I’m happy to hear them out. But if it can’t be resolved, I’m sure they’ll be happier somewhere else.

We should be much more upset at the ridiculous salaries and benefits some of our politicians and elected officials are earning with absolutely zero merit.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Wow, thanks Karl!

You’re welcome

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by BariasEC

My business is not a democracy. I make the decisions based on what I believe is best while always closely following the rule of law.

There is no vote to remove me after some 4 years, I am almighty.
The better I do, the more taxes I pay. The more people I employ.

If someone doesn’t like it, I’m happy to hear them out. But if it can’t be resolved, I’m sure they’ll be happier somewhere else.

We should be much more upset at the ridiculous salaries and benefits some of our politicians and elected officials are earning with absolutely zero merit.

Businesses are only anti-democratic because the power has disproportionately been in the hands of capital. When that power shifts to the workers (ie through unionization, pro-worker legislation, etc), the people who actually create the value, wages and wealth equity go up, poverty, hunger and homelessness go down, and both the economy and society flourishes. Things are pretty bad out there but thankfully the younger generations are seeing just how corrupt and meaningless neoliberalism is and how working harder doesn’t actually get one further but only makes the rich richer. The tide is changing and that is a good thing.

And government salaries is not the problem. Let’s look at the salaries of the CEOs and executives, and the dividends and share buybacks that enrich the already-wealthy, while wages continue to be suppressed and more work gets piled onto nurses, teachers, airline workers, construction workers, software developers, social workers, etc for the same pay. The places you are looking to blame are insignificant compared to the excessive and immoral profits being extracted from our communities. You don’t need to be a leftist like me to see it. All you need to understand is math.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by BariasEC

The better I do, the more taxes I pay. The more people I employ.

.
I call B.S. on this. It's the core of the "what's good for GM is good for the country" myth that gets trotted out all the time.

Businesses are expert at avoiding paying tax wherever and whenever they can, through any means they can, whether it's through tax loopholes, creative bookkeeping or government incentives. The amount can have little to do with how well the business are doing.

Businesses also despise hiring staff unless there is absolutely no way to avoid it. Staff is expensive to hire, train and retain, and, let's be honest, can be a pain in the ass to deal with.

Businesses are essential for the economy and have some positive effects on the society as a whole, but they exist to make a profit for their owners and shareholders. Period. Nothing wrong with that, but I wish they'd stop demanding they get a good citizenship award and be told "poor sweet baby" at the same time.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Businesses are only anti-democratic because the power has disproportionately been in the hands of capital. When that power shifts to the workers (ie through unionization, pro-worker legislation, etc), the people who actually create the value, wages and wealth equity go up, poverty, hunger and homelessness go down, and both the economy and society flourishes. Things are pretty bad out there but thankfully the younger generations are seeing just how corrupt and meaningless neoliberalism is and how working harder doesn’t actually get one further but only makes the rich richer. The tide is changing and that is a good thing.

And government salaries is not the problem. Let’s look at the salaries of the CEOs and executives, and the dividends and share buybacks that enrich the already-wealthy, while wages continue to be suppressed and more work gets piled onto nurses, teachers, airline workers, construction workers, software developers, social workers, etc for the same pay. The places you are looking to blame are insignificant compared to the excessive and immoral profits being extracted from our communities. You don’t need to be a leftist like me to see it. All you need to understand is math.

Exactly!

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by pspeid

.
I call B.S. on this. It's the core of the "what's good for GM is good for the country" myth that gets trotted out all the time.

Businesses are expert at avoiding paying tax wherever and whenever they can, through any means they can, whether it's through tax loopholes, creative bookkeeping or government incentives. The amount can have little to do with how well the business are doing.

Businesses also despise hiring staff unless there is absolutely no way to avoid it. Staff is expensive to hire, train and retain, and, let's be honest, can be a pain in the ass to deal with.

Businesses are essential for the economy and have some positive effects on the society as a whole, but they exist to make a profit for their owners and shareholders. Period. Nothing wrong with that, but I wish they'd stop demanding they get a good citizenship award and be told "poor sweet baby" at the same time.

His claim has always been a lie. Profits are through the roof lately but companies won’t dare increase wages and hire more people to make up for all those who retired and moved on during the pandemic nor will they give up more of their excessive profits so we can properly fund health care, education, etc. If the claim about lower taxes and higher profits “trickling down” to workers was true, incomes wouldn’t have been stagnant and the wealth of the bottom 90% would not have moved considerably to the top 1% ever since neoliberalism took hold in the 80s. More and more people are finally seeing the lies and empty promises for what they are and I will never stop reminding people about the truth until us ordinary people, the workers who create the value, get what is owed to them. I am in a privileged position as a software developer making a decent income and I will use my power to fight for those who don’t have the same privilege as me (not to mention I grew up in poverty, lived in public housing, have used the food bank, have mental illness and addiction in the family, etc, so I know what it’s like to not be privileged).

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Exactly!

[BlackDog204]

No fan of the Manitoba NDP, but the way the Conservative party is headed provincially and Federally, I would never vote for them.Right now in Alberta, Danielle Smith is a front runner for the UCP leadership, in spite of being an anti vaxx conspiracy theorist, who Is a borderline Alberta separatist.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

No fan of the Manitoba NDP, but the way the Conservative party is headed provincially and Federally, I would never vote for them.Right now in Alberta, Danielle Smith is a front runner for the UCP leadership, in spite of being an anti vaxx conspiracy theorist, who Is a borderline Alberta separatist.

As a historical fan of the Conservative parties, both Provincial and Federal, I too am at a point where I don't feel comfortable with voting for the expected or current leaders. I may for the first time since being allowed to, not vote as no candidate represents me properly.

[bomberjet]

You gotta get out and vote. If you don't like the current Conservatives, in which you usually vote for, then vote against them. Nothing like being voted out by your own people. Tells the party something. This goes for every party and every voter.

[esquire]

The Manitoba PCs (and the governing conservative parties in Western Canada in general) are headed in a weird direction that seems untenable to me. You have the business-minded people who just want a competitive economy, but now there is a growing faction of extremists, kind of the Monstrosity Burger types who buy into the US culture war stuff and want to burn society down.

The NDP equivalent would be like if a large contingent of their supporters suddenly became Maoist revolutionaries.

It's hard to square the increasingly hyper-aggressive weirdness of Manitoba PC supporters with a party that wants to have mass appeal.

[Winnipeg Grump]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

No fan of the Manitoba NDP, but the way the Conservative party is headed provincially and Federally, I would never vote for them.Right now in Alberta, Danielle Smith is a front runner for the UCP leadership, in spite of being an anti vaxx conspiracy theorist, who Is a borderline Alberta separatist.

Except she isn't borderline separatist. She's openly arguing that Alberta be able to adhere to whatever federal policies/regulations they want to, regardless of federal authority over specific areas.

The CPC and their provincial equivalents raise soooo much money off of the outrage machine. They can't cut the cord and move policies to the centre and appeal to the 'big tent' anymore because they're terrified of losing that base and the money they bring in. They're also exposed on their right flank to the PPC and provincial equivalents so it will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Manitoba PCs (and the governing conservative parties in Western Canada in general) are headed in a weird direction that seems untenable to me. You have the business-minded people who just want a competitive economy, but now there is a growing faction of extremists, kind of the Monstrosity Burger types who buy into the US culture war stuff and want to burn society down.

The NDP equivalent would be like if a large contingent of their supporters suddenly became Maoist revolutionaries.

It's hard to square the increasingly hyper-aggressive weirdness of Manitoba PC supporters with a party that wants to have mass appeal.

It is at least somewhat understandable in Alberta’s case, as they have a long history with the concept of ‘I’ll take my oil money and tell nosy Ottawa to pound sand’, rightly or wrongly.

In Manitoba’s case, I get it less. One would figure a Doug Ford-like mass appeal guy with a slight conservative bent would do better. Not openly hostile to Ottawa, but a positive ‘Let’s Build Manitoba’ schtick.

[djforsberg]

The conservatives might be courting forced-birth extremists, separatists, and literal fascists, but hey, at least they won't raise your taxes.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Winnipeg Grump

She's openly arguing that Alberta be able to adhere to whatever federal policies/regulations they want to, regardless of federal authority over specific areas.

Constitutional crises are rarely good for business. If she eventually gains the party leadership and premiership it will be interesting to see how or if this affects their economy. I don't anticipate huge numbers of businesses looking to relocate as long as the oil revenue is still gushing, but will some internationals think twice about growing their businesses in Alberta if they are going to start making "independence" noises?

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Winnipeg Grump

Except she isn't borderline separatist. She's openly arguing that Alberta be able to adhere to whatever federal policies/regulations they want to, regardless of federal authority over specific areas.

Not sure how much you follow Alberta politics, but Smith wanting to pass the Soverignty Act, is by definition, moving in the direction of succeeding from Canada.

The CPC and their provincial equivalents raise soooo much money off of the outrage machine. They can't cut the cord and move policies to the centre and appeal to the 'big tent' anymore because they're terrified of losing that base and the money they bring in. They're also exposed on their right flank to the PPC and provincial equivalents so it will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

The money they raise is overstated. Not only that, but it's alienating the more moderate conservative base, which is larger in numbers.

[thurmas]

Stefanson approval rating only 22% today and only 2% strongly approve. PCs will get crushed like this.