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  #2281  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by originalmuffins View Post
Wholeheartedly agree. They're just wasting everyone's time with this. We need HFR or HSR yesterday. It is really disturbing that they cannot even put together a proper plan for the Quebec Windsor corridor, which has HUGE density and would absolutely have great ridership.

People don't take VIA Rail because its slow and outdated. Why spend 6.5 hours on a train when you can just drive for half of that for many city to city destinations.

"Government of Canada issues Request for Proposals: Spring 2023
Deadline for response to Request for Proposals: Fall 2024 " from their statement on March 10th.

2 years to accept a bid? All this does is delay it to the next government, who will also want to look at it their own way. The bureaucracy around this is ridiculous to the point that I've lost major faith in this development. Just a pipe dream. Would be glad to be proven wrong.
This country seems to be incapable of building pan provincial or pan national infrastructure. Every level of government seems to be incapable of taking the bull by the horns and just get things started. Too concerned about image and ribbon cutting vice cutting the red tape and taking the risks.
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  #2282  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by originalmuffins View Post
People don't take VIA Rail because its slow and outdated. Why spend 6.5 hours on a train when you can just drive for half of that for many city to city destinations.
Which city pairs in the corridor would you "spend 6.5 hours on a train when you can just drive for half of that." Since this is a thread in the "Ottawa-Gatineau" forum, I will look at a few popular destinations from Ottawa:

Code:
                Train, avg    Driving (no traffic)
Ottawa-Montreal 2 hrs         2 hrs
Ottawa-Kingston 2 hrs 5 min   2 hrs
Ottawa-Toronto  4 hrs 35 min  4 hrs 20 min
Ottawa-Québec   6 hrs         4 hrs 30 min
Most are very competitive (only Ottawa-Québec is significantly longer, but certainly not double), and that is assuming no traffic (which can cause significant delays when driving). As VIA rolls out its new fleet over the next couple years, it will be a very comfortable experience (it should also help shorten the Ottawa-Québec a bit as they won't need to turn the trains around in Montreal.

Outside of the corridor, yes VIA isn't competitive with driving, but other than maybe Calgary-Edmonton (which currently doesn't have train service), I don't see HFR (let alone HSR) being practical, as the demand just isn't there to make the train viable either economically or environmentally.
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  #2283  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 3:17 PM
originalmuffins originalmuffins is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Which city pairs in the corridor would you "spend 6.5 hours on a train when you can just drive for half of that." Since this is a thread in the "Ottawa-Gatineau" forum, I will look at a few popular destinations from Ottawa:

Code:
                Train, avg    Driving (no traffic)
Ottawa-Montreal 2 hrs         2 hrs
Ottawa-Kingston 2 hrs 5 min   2 hrs
Ottawa-Toronto  4 hrs 35 min  4 hrs 20 min
Ottawa-Québec   6 hrs         4 hrs 30 min
Most are very competitive (only Ottawa-Québec is significantly longer, but certainly not double), and that is assuming no traffic (which can cause significant delays when driving). As VIA rolls out its new fleet over the next couple years, it will be a very comfortable experience (it should also help shorten the Ottawa-Québec a bit as they won't need to turn the trains around in Montreal.

Outside of the corridor, yes VIA isn't competitive with driving, but other than maybe Calgary-Edmonton (which currently doesn't have train service), I don't see HFR (let alone HSR) being practical, as the demand just isn't there to make the train viable either economically or environmentally.

There's already many others who stated similarly, but Ottawa to Toronto very rarely is 4.5 hours. I've ridden it multiple times and I never got to Ottawa before 5 hours and a bit hits. Regardless of the technicalities, the current infrastructure is outdated and way slower than rail transport between cities should be. Trying to obtain HFR or HSR across all of Canada is a challenge, that makes sense. The Quebec to Windsor corridor does not have that problem, because there is no issues of a lack of density.
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  #2284  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by originalmuffins View Post
There's already many others who stated similarly, but Ottawa to Toronto very rarely is 4.5 hours. I've ridden it multiple times and I never got to Ottawa before 5 hours and a bit hits.
While that may be true, I also highly doubt that you can reliably drive to Toronto in only 4 hrs 20 min either. In reality it will likely be over 5 hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by originalmuffins View Post
Regardless of the technicalities, the current infrastructure is outdated and way slower than rail transport between cities should be. Trying to obtain HFR or HSR across all of Canada is a challenge, that makes sense. The Quebec to Windsor corridor does not have that problem, because there is no issues of a lack of density.
Don't get me wrong. I strongly support HFR in the Quebec to Windsor corridor. VIA needs dedicated tracks to not be slowed down by the ever increasing amount of rail freight. As I recently said on UT:
Quote:
the carbon emissions saved by freight trains dwarf any potential carbon emissions that can be saved by passenger trains, so it is important not to discourage rail freight. If anything, we should be encouraging more freight to be moved from trucks to train, but that is rarely talked about by rail fans (or politicians).
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  #2285  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 4:59 PM
JayBuoy JayBuoy is offline
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The train needs to be at least an hour faster than the drive to account for the journey from the station to ones final destination. I took the train frequently between Ottawa and Toronto, where the final leg of my trip from union to the family home in the suburbs adds at least 30 mins (cab) maximum 1.5 hrs (train/bus->bus->walk).
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  #2286  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 8:22 PM
DEWLine DEWLine is offline
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I take VIA when I can because it's slow/fast enough while still giving me a view. And I wish the service restoration process would go bigger.
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  #2287  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 9:28 PM
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I've both taken the train from Ottawa to Toronto and driven there. Even if the train is an hour or even two hours longer than driving, not having to deal with idiots and crazy people on the 401 is more than worth it.
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  #2288  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2022, 2:04 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
I've both taken the train from Ottawa to Toronto and driven there. Even if the train is an hour or even two hours longer than driving, not having to deal with idiots and crazy people on the 401 is more than worth it.
That is the number one reason why the Ottawa-Toronto route was already so popular. If you are heading to downtown Toronto, who wants to fight the 401 truck convoy and other racetrack drivers?
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  #2289  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2022, 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
I've both taken the train from Ottawa to Toronto and driven there. Even if the train is an hour or even two hours longer than driving, not having to deal with idiots and crazy people on the 401 is more than worth it.
Very true. Also, while it is true that some people get great enjoyment from driving, for most it is a necessary chore and taking the train frees them up to either do something more productive or enjoyable, so the time spent isn’t really an apples to apples comparison.
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  #2290  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2022, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Very true. Also, while it is true that some people get great enjoyment from driving, for most it is a necessary chore and taking the train frees them up to either do something more productive or enjoyable, so the time spent isn’t really an apples to apples comparison.
I once drove to Toronto and I thought leaving early I'd miss the craziness of the 401 and not take the toll road. Cripes, I had barely got on the 401 and was almost sideswiped twice by inattentive drivers. As soon as I could I took the first off-ramp to the toll road. I have no idea how people do that commute without becoming a raving lunatic.
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  #2291  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2022, 4:53 PM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
I've both taken the train from Ottawa to Toronto and driven there. Even if the train is an hour or even two hours longer than driving, not having to deal with idiots and crazy people on the 401 is more than worth it.
We used to have to drive to Scarborough. Given there were 4 of us going, the car was the best choice.

Later with just the two of us and heading to downtown Toronto, we started to favour the train but the scheduling was too restrictive.

Eventually we settled on driving to Oshawa, leaving the car there and taking the GO to Toronto. Frequent service and we pay with our Presto Cards. It is the perfect solution for us. Even if meetings end up running too late to grab the 5:30 train, we still have the option of driving home that night since the GO runs past rush hour.
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  #2292  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 8:56 PM
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Deadline extended again as VIA rail, Unifor speed toward potential strike
A strike would affect VIA rail's service in Ottawa, which has eight daily trains to and from Toronto and another five to and from Montreal

Matthew Lapierre, Ottawa Citizen
Jul 11, 2022 • 35 minutes ago • 2 minute read


A 4 p.m. Monday strike deadline for VIA rail employees has been pushed to 6 p.m. as negotiations continue between the Crown corporation and Unifor.

If the parties have not reached a collective agreement by the deadline, and if that deadline is not extended further, VIA rail would be forced to immediately suspend service across the country as more than 2,000 employees walk off the job.

“Talks between VIA Rail and Unifor continue,” a spokesperson wrote in an email. “The strike deadline has now been extended from July 11 at 4:00 p.m. EST to July 11 at 6:00 p.m. EST”

A strike would affect VIA rail’s service in Ottawa, which has eight daily trains to and from Toronto and another five to and from Montreal.

Council 4000 and Local 100, two Unifor-affiliated unions that represent maintenance workers, on-board service personnel, chefs, sales agents and customer service staff at VIA rail, issued a strike warning on July 8. They are protesting VIA’s attempts to remove a supplemental agreement from the collective agreement, which, the unions maintain, would result in loss of job security for their members.

“We remain hopeful that a deal can be reached,” said Lana Payne, Unifor National Secretary-Treasurer in a statement on Monday. “Our bargaining committees have been steadfast in wanting to achieve a deal that respects and values their work.”

VIA Rail said in a statement that it remained committed to the negotiations and would attempt to reach an agreement without any service disruptions.

“VIA Rail remains committed to reaching a fair and reasonable agreement,” said Martin Landry, President and CEO of VIA Rail. “In the past few months, there has been an increased appetite for travel. We recognize the additional stress this situation is placing on our passengers and the communities we serve from coast to coast to coast.”

VIA Rail is offering customers the opportunity to make changes to their travel plans without service fees for any departures prior to July 31, 2022.

Reservations can be modified by calling 1 888 VIA-RAIL (1-888-842-7245), or 1 800-268-9503 for persons who are deaf or hard of hearing.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...tential-strike
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  #2293  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2022, 11:43 AM
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Via Rail strike averted with last-minute deal
The deal still has to be ratified by Unifor members

Canadian Press
Jul 12, 2022 • 14 minutes ago • 1 minute read


Officials with Via Rail and Unifor Council 4000 and Local 100 have announced a tentative deal has been struck just ahead of a deadline that would have seen some 2,400 workers walk off the job.

A late-night statement from Via Rail says the deal, which still has to be ratified by the union, will be retroactive to January 1, 2022 and in effect through December 31, 2024.

Details of the new contract have not been released, but a statement from Unifor says they will be once it has been ratified by members.

With the strike averted, Via Rail noted that the tentative agreements give travelling Canadians a break from the uncertainty of a possible shutdown.

Unifor’s lead negotiator, Scott Doherty, offered up his thanks to the union members and the travelling public, “for their patience and support, while we continued to negotiate past the strike deadline to achieve this agreement.”

As talks continued to progress, the union offered to push back several deadlines that would have initiated the job action and derailed the company’s operations, coast to coast.

https://ottawacitizen.com/business/m...f-f1c8101ffcf5
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  #2294  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2022, 11:13 PM
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Via Rail cars are so old they need 'buffer cars' in case of a collision
Taxpayers should not be funding cruise ships on rails — or any rail service that's as unnecessarily terrible as Via

Chris Selley, Ottawa Citizen
Oct 27, 2022 • 5 hours ago • 4 minute read


A seemingly obscure little news item popped up recently in the rail-fan blogosphere: Via Rail had begun running “buffer” cars at the front and rear of trains using Via’s mid-century stainless-steel passenger cars. This was ordered on Oct. 19 by Transport Canada’s director general of rail safety, and the reasoning may explain why Via did not seem eager to publicize the development. (Rail fans noticed it first.)

“As recommended by (a) third-party engineering firm,” Via’s media relations department told me in an email, “the corporation has added buffer cars … to reduce the consequences in the unlikely event of a train-to-train collision.”

Essentially, these cars are so old and possibly structurally compromised — the latter having been discovered during an ongoing refurbishment project that Via calls the “Heritage Program” — that they require crumple zones. The buffer cars are supposed to absorb the impact, or at least lessen it, before it bursts any human meatbags.

Luckily for Via, this is not a serious problem on the Quebec City-to-Windsor corridor that 94 per cent of its passengers travelled in 2019: Those trains almost all use much newer rollingstock, soon to be replaced by newer-still. But it’s an existential threat to Via’s money-hemorrhaging long-distance routes, and it may finally force a long-overdue reckoning in Ottawa over Canada’s terrible-in-every-respect passenger-rail system.

For the poor souls who really do rely on Via, the main effect of this buffer business is to prevent them from bringing pets aboard: Dogs and cats travel in the baggage car, and must be fed and watered along the way; now, those “buffer” cars must always be empty except for baggage.

For tourists it’s just as bad, if not as existential: In some cases Via has designated its iconic dome cars at the rear of long-distance trains, where you can watch the scenery go by, as buffers. And in some cases, you can’t get so much as a cup-o-noodles along the way.

“Unfortunately access to the Park car with dome and panoramic view will be temporarily suspended,” very fine print explains if you try to book passage on the Skeena, which runs from Jasper, Alta., to Prince Rupert, B.C. “The sale of snacks and beverages will also not be available.”

That’s roughly 20 hours on a very slow train without so much as a hot coffee to perk you up or a nice perch to view the scenery. Driving is much quicker and cheaper, obviously.

A short-term partial solution involves installing buffer cars behind the existing final cars. Via claims this is already happening on the “vast majority of routes.” Eric Gagnon, a rail blogger and author based in Kingston, Ont., who helped me wrap my mind around these issues — Via is not at all forthcoming with details — has documented empty sleeper cars serving as those rear buffers, including behind dome cars on The Canadian. That’s the supposedly “iconic” train that now takes a mind-melting 97 hours to reach Vancouver from Toronto — almost a full day longer than in the 1950s.

If the old-timey cars are indeed structurally unsound, however, they will need to be renovated or replaced; and the existing “Heritage Program” is only budgeted for a fraction of the cars of that era. If Via’s long-distance routes are going to continue, the Crown corporation will need to find a heck-ton of taxpayer money — certainly in the hundreds of millions. That means the federal government’s train-minders will finally have to either drop their rousers and get down to business or vacate the restroom: Are Via’s tourist-focused long-distance routes — the Canadian, the Skeena, the Ocean (between Montreal and Halifax) — worth spending serious money on, or aren’t they?

As a huge fan of rail travel I hate to say this, but by any objective standard, they are not. In 2019, the average passenger on the Canadian was taxpayer-subsidized to the tune of $595, or 39 cents per kilometre; on the Ocean $535, or 61 cents per kilometre; on the Skeena, $515 or $1.01 per kilometre. Add on massive capital costs for new rollingstock, and Canadian taxpayers are quickly going to start noticing that they’re subsidizing what are essentially cruise ships on rails. Despite the huge subsidy, the cheapest one-way ticket from Toronto to Winnipeg that will feed you and give you a bunk to sleep over the 35-hour trip is $615. The cheapest such ticket from Saskatoon to Vancouver, a 47-hour trip, is $695.

Flying is cheaper and quicker, obviously. These trains should be the private sector’s business, if they’re anyone’s.

Furthermore, the feds are mulling over a $10-billion-plus “high-frequency rail” project that should provide much more reliable and frequent service between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal — because Via would own almost all of the tracks instead of deferring to freight trains at every siding as it does now. Whether that can be a game-changing proposition is very much an open question, however: Flying would still be unambiguously quicker between Toronto and Montreal, for example. Via would have to sweeten the deal with excellent, business-centred service, wi-fi that actually works and food that doesn’t require three minutes of chewing and a $50 dare to swallow.

There is little reason to believe Via is capable of delivering that, no matter how lavishly resourced it is. For no obvious good reason, between Quebec City and Windsor, it has made riding its always-late and always-slow trains as miserable as possible. By rights, any long-term vision of taxpayer-subsidized rail travel in Canada should involve winding down this wretched, failed Crown corporation and starting over.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/ch...d-1680c3e78eb3
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  #2295  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2022, 10:36 PM
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  #2296  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2022, 3:44 PM
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  #2297  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2022, 6:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Via Rail cars are so old they need 'buffer cars' in case of a collision
Taxpayers should not be funding cruise ships on rails — or any rail service that's as unnecessarily terrible as Via

Chris Selley, Ottawa Citizen
Oct 27, 2022 • 5 hours ago • 4 minute read

...

Driving is much quicker and cheaper, obviously.
...

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/ch...d-1680c3e78eb3
That really depends. If you own a car and amortize the cost of ownership over all of your uses, it is likely cheaper. If you have to rent a car, it may not be so cut and dry, especially if you have to pay a one-way drop fee.

It is also difficult to say that it is faster if there aren't any roads to your destination. VIA's regional rail services (and The Canadian) serve many places mid route that don't have road access. Driving off-road for hundreds of kilometers will be slow (if possible).

It also depends how you measure your time. If you objective is to get to your destination as fast as possible, that is one thing. If you are measuring the amount of wasted time, that is another. You can't do very much that is productive while driving, or even as a passenger in a car.
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  #2298  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2022, 7:16 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
That really depends. If you own a car and amortize the cost of ownership over all of your uses, it is likely cheaper. If you have to rent a car, it may not be so cut and dry, especially if you have to pay a one-way drop fee.
It often depends on how many people are involved. The marginal cost of additional passengers is a car (up to the number of seats) is essentially zero (maybe a need to buy more timbits).
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  #2299  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2022, 8:31 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Selley misses the point. Nobody is taking VIA across the country as an alternative flying. It's a public service to remote communities that uses tourist traffic to subsidize its operating costs. Urban Sky has detailed this a number of times on this forum and UT.

In any event, the plans being drawn up for HFR substantially point to a privatization of VIA Corridor services. I suspect VIA as we know it will be gone in 10-15 years.
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  #2300  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 8:54 PM
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It often depends on how many people are involved. The marginal cost of additional passengers is a car (up to the number of seats) is essentially zero (maybe a need to buy more timbits).
Agreed. There are often many factors at play, which is what I said.
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