[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by sailor734

What's the status of the old Ideal store (more recently the Scout Shop and Bike Works). I wonder if it is still in relatively decent structural condition? It would be the only building still standing on the block between the 60's office building on the corner of Coberg and Tops on the corner with Waterloo. It's a pretty impressive building......(I think the stone says 1880) Maybe if something decent got built beside it it might be a candidate for a full rehab

I believe (if I am thinking of the correct building) there are recently renovated apartments in that building on the second/third floor.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by gtsoc

I believe (if I am thinking of the correct building) there are recently renovated apartments in that building on the second/third floor.

There has been some fairly recent work on the building done when Haven Music Hall opened on the ground floor less than two years ago too, so it is at least being occupied and cared for.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

What's the status of the old Ideal store (more recently the Scout Shop and Bike Works). I wonder if it is still in relatively decent structural condition? It would be the only building still standing on the block between the 60's office building on the corner of Coberg and Tops on the corner with Waterloo. It's a pretty impressive building......(I think the stone says 1880) Maybe if something decent got built beside it it might be a candidate for a full rehab

It's fully renovated and occupied. A dozen (apparently nice) apartments.

That 60s office building needs the whole exterior torn off and replaced with literally anything, even modern panels. It's a terrible looking building.

[adamuptownsj]

I was thinking about the uptown/south end parking situation- as the area continues to grow, there will be more cars. Likely a lower ratio of cars to people than now, but by raw numbers, definitely more. Coupled with the city's desire to sell and develop surface lots, a new garage in a convenient location for residents would make sense, especially one with ground floor commercial space (parking both underground and above it).

The parking garage planned at Fundy Quay will likely serve its residents/patrons, and won't be built for a long while. It's also not in an ideal location for the South End.

Where would you place a garage?

My first thought is the sprawling parking lot just south of 110 Charlotte. It wouldn't impact residential areas too negatively, but is only accessible in one direction, which isn't great. Or, the corner of Carmarthen and St James, which is VERY central, easy to access, and is as close to the middle of the South End that you can find vacant land on. Footprint wouldn't be that large, and it would only displace a single business/no residents. I don't think there's many homeowners around to complain, it's mostly rentals.

Not looking to start a tedious debate about cars in urban centres. But, would this be feasible?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

https://saintjohn.ca/en/parks-and-recreation/arenas-and-skating

The city should be adding the new rink to their website and update the status of the rink as to “weather” or not it is open.

Also, I’ve heard the newest outdoor rink in Fredericton uses a better chiller than the one we went with here in Saint John. Our harbourside rink in the city with the mildest weather in the province can only be operated near and below freezing temperatures, while much colder Fredericton went with a chiller that lets them operate it well above freezing?

Sounds like we should be looking to go with a similar cooler for the next outdoor rink, and pick a better, colder location within the city limits.

❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

It's fully renovated and occupied. A dozen (apparently nice) apartments.

That 60s office building needs the whole exterior torn off and replaced with literally anything, even modern panels. It's a terrible looking building.

OK, that's good to know. I guess it's just the old ground floor commercial storefront that gives me the impression it's sort of seedy......makes it look kind of rundown. Also, it looks like it might of had new window frames on the second floor but the windows on 3 and 4 look old and weathered.


Agree about the little office building on the corner.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

https://saintjohn.ca/en/parks-and-recreation/arenas-and-skating

The city should be adding the new rink to their website and update the status of the rink as to “weather” or not it is open.

Also, I’ve heard the newest outdoor rink in Fredericton uses a better chiller than the one we went with here in Saint John. Our harbourside rink in the city with the mildest weather in the province can only be operated near and below freezing temperatures, while much colder Fredericton went with a chiller that lets them operate it well above freezing?

Sounds like we should be looking to go with a similar cooler for the next outdoor rink, and pick a better, colder location within the city limits.

❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️

I agree with you on those points. I'm sure the technology exists to keep a rink like that functioning at least 10C above freezing. Unfortunately, as a life long Saint John resident I find it only too easy to believe it's possible the city either screwed up
or cheaped out.

A quick Google search of outdoor refrigerated rinks suggests that 50F (10C) is easily doable and some suggest they can function up to 70F with a properly sized chiller (outdoor rink in LA)

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I agree with you on those points. I'm sure the technology exists to keep a rink like that functioning at least 10C above freezing. Unfortunately, as a life long Saint John resident I find it only too easy to believe it's possible the city either screwed up or cheaped out.

Not just the city, but also our MP/ the federal government and (I think?) provincial partners. Wayne Long has an extensive background with ice hockey and the Sea Dogs. He should have made sure we were going with a chiller at least as good as the one being used in Fredericton…

Same with that $500,000 outdoor hockey rink outside Harbour Station that he MP Long took credit for, that was built with no roof and no chiller, and that stays locked up all winter… no foresight at all.

The chiller for this skating oval seems to only work during near freezing conditions, here in the city with the most mild weather in the province, at a location literally beside the ocean. Hopefully the city engineers can work out a solution to make the chiller get colder ❄️

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I was thinking about the uptown/south end parking situation- as the area continues to grow, there will be more cars. Likely a lower ratio of cars to people than now, but by raw numbers, definitely more. Coupled with the city's desire to sell and develop surface lots, a new garage in a convenient location for residents would make sense, especially one with ground floor commercial space (parking both underground and above it).

The parking garage planned at Fundy Quay will likely serve its residents/patrons, and won't be built for a long while. It's also not in an ideal location for the South End.

Where would you place a garage?

My first thought is the sprawling parking lot just south of 110 Charlotte. It wouldn't impact residential areas too negatively, but is only accessible in one direction, which isn't great. Or, the corner of Carmarthen and St James, which is VERY central, easy to access, and is as close to the middle of the South End that you can find vacant land on. Footprint wouldn't be that large, and it would only displace a single business/no residents. I don't think there's many homeowners around to complain, it's mostly rentals.

Not looking to start a tedious debate about cars in urban centres. But, would this be feasible?

Do you think it's reasonable to require parking in new multi story apartment developments in the uptown?

Going down 2-3 floors for underground parking must be pretty expensive in Saint John rock.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

A quick Google search of outdoor refrigerated rinks suggests that 50F (10C) is easily doable and some suggest they can function up to 70F with a properly sized chiller (outdoor rink in LA)

If I recall correctly, the very first NHL outdoor game (at least in the modern era) was in Las Vegas between Gretzky’s Kings and a team that escapes me.

Gretzky said the ice was perfect. I believe low humidity is actually helpful, but sunlight of course, is not. Saint John shouldn’t have any serious problems considering how often we have overcast days, and how our sunniest days are usually the coldest days during the winter.

However, in typical Saint John fashion, our city leaders and partners in the provincial and federal governments found a way to cheap out or mess it up somehow. Hopefully, it’s more the latter… and they just need to troubleshoot. But my guess is it’s the former, that they cheeped out on the chiller, and they’ll need to invest in a better one for this rink to actually work as intended.

All might not be lost… Saint John is a city of microclimates. They may be able to use that current chiller for another outdoor rink at a colder, less humid and more inland location, and then buy a better chiller, like the one in Fredericton, for this “seaside” skating rink.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Do you think it's reasonable to require parking in new multi story apartment developments in the uptown?

Going down 2-3 floors for underground parking must be pretty expensive in Saint John rock.

Perhaps above ground parkades incorporated into a project would be most cossst effective. Something like 1 floor underground+ 2 floors above ground parking?

Not a great option for the typical 6 storey apartment buildings were seeing built Uptown, but could be quite an interesting option for the 10+, 20+, and 30+ storey projects that we’ll eventually see get built in Saint John.

Will be interesting to see how they deal with the parking piece at 99 King.. Fundy Quay I think is already all planned out?

I know you’re not as optimistic on the future of the sugar refinery site as some are… but it’s probably a lot easier to dig down into than the bedrock in the middle of central peninsula? There’s a lot of remediation efforts and structural issues to address with that site, I believe you mentioned 100+ year old teak pilings? 2-3 floors of underground parking could possible be part of the remediation project, and something worthwhile for the city and governmental partners to fund, then sell off the property to a private developer.

[sailor734]

I think I saw that 99 King was to be 2 floors fully underground and one floor ground level becoming underground on the Charlotte side of the building. The excavation certainly look deep enough.

Above grade parkades occupying the first floor or two of buildings would hardly be conducive to attractive streetscapes. However, expediency and cost cutting might well see them happen.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Do you think it's reasonable to require parking in new multi story apartment developments in the uptown?

Going down 2-3 floors for underground parking must be pretty expensive in Saint John rock.

Depends. Mixed income, absolutely not. Cost-prohibitive. Market rate, sure. I don't think a 1:1 parking space:unit ratio is necessarily needed. 0.75:1 or something, maybe lower. But definitely, parking is needed for anything substantial. A big municipal garage on either of the locations I mentioned, with a residential rate and ground-floor commercial, would massively alleviate parking issues.

More importantly it would let the city unload inefficient and winter-management-intensive surface lots, which could be developed in a ton of different ways. The lot across Charlotte from the Admiral Beatty would make an excellent high end development. Peters St could easily be midrise mixed-income. The lot on Canterbury and Princess is egregious to even be parking. It only holds 13 cars on some prime real estate.

[sailor734]

It would be interesting to know the average cost per stall to build a moderately sized free standing parking garage....

I found this site but it's American so I expect you'd have to add a fair bit per space. Might 30-40K CAD be reasonable?

https://www.fixr.com/costs/build-parking-garage

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

181 and 183 are the same building.

Apparently 185-187 (the Max Pub, formerly the Iceberg) suffered extreme water damage during the firefighting effort. May face demolition too.

Looks like just 181-183 Union being demolished at the moment. No mention of the Max Pub building being included......kind of too bad.

https://www.thewave.ca/2025/01/07/fire-ravaged-saint-john-building-being-demolished/

Edit It sounds like this building is coming down because the city deemed it structurally unsafe. The Max Pub may just be water damaged past the point of economic repair but not deemed unsafe. That's too bad if it's the case as it could well just be boarded up and left.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Looks like just 181-183 Union being demolished at the moment. No mention of the Max Pub building being included......kind of too bad.

https://www.thewave.ca/2025/01/07/fire-ravaged-saint-john-building-being-demolished/

My thoughts exactly (sorry to any regulars there). My hope was that side of the road would be fully demolished and we can expect some infill along the street there.

[adamuptownsj]

The Max seems to have power currently. Doesn't look like it's going anywhere. An elegant solution would be the Max relocating across the street to where Union Station is now (the building is for sale) and demolishing the current site.

[sailor734]

Sounds like we might well just be getting another parking lot.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Sounds like we might well just be getting another parking lot.

In a way Union Street reminds me of Gottingen St in Halifax. Was on that street last summer and was amazed how much it changed / improved since I lived in Halifax in the 90’s

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

In a way Union Street reminds me of Gottingen St in Halifax. Was on that street last summer and was amazed how much it changed / improved since I lived in Halifax in the 90’s

Union Street has a huge amount of potential. If it was me, I'd find a way to demolish everything from Coburg to Waterloo/Sydney. Stop traffic from that section and make it a walkable only street after 1pm like Argyle in Halifax.
If we could get more buildings in a similar vein to the Wellington/Telegraph with restaurant/shops below. Might be able to revitalize that area.