The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Metro-One]

Don't open these cans of worms, haha, Vancouver is not allowed to have anything over any other city on this forum, plus Toronto is building some LRT lines that one could include as rapid transit (though in another can of worms debate rapid transit can be seen as only those that are grade separated).

So, what you can say is Vancouver will have the longest fully grade separated metro in Canada.

Also fun to note it is still the worlds 2nd longest automated system.

One last fun note is that we were the last major city to instal our first line in Canada, even Edmonton and Calgary built their LRTs first, so that is amazing progress going from last place (nothing) to arguably first.

[Chadillaccc]

haha yeah I've noticed that too... even though it has a lot of things over most cities in this country... having lived in most of our cities over 1 million people, I can say that confidently.

But yeah, I guess "longest fully grade-separated metro system in the country" sounds more PC as to not upset the insecure peeps.

[TownGuy]

The Toronto and Montreal systems have like triple the ridership though don't they? Not to open up the can of worms debate but is that because the Skytrain technology can't move the amount of people that a traditional subway can? Serious question I have no idea.

[Chadillaccc]

The technology can, but it doesn't need to. All stations have the capacity to be expended, but it's not needed yet. I wonder if Vancouver's impressive expansion is made more impressive by the fact that it has such relatively low ridership? It absolutely shows forward thinking on the part of the municipal and provincial governments, at least.

[caltrane74]

Toronto has the shortest RT line, yes but it has a far greater capacity than Vancouver's line.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

The Toronto and Montreal systems have like triple the ridership though don't they? Not to open up the can of worms debate but is that because the Skytrain technology can't move the amount of people that a traditional subway can? Serious question I have no idea.

The ultimate capacity for Skytrain is 25 700 people per hour per direction, which I don't believe is that much less than Toronto's capacity.

Skytrain is certainly a lot more cost effective than TTC subway. The extension to Vaughan will cost $2.6 billion for 8.6 km's = 302 million/km. The Evergreen Line in Vancouver will cost 1.4 billion for 11 km's = 127 million/km - less than half the cost.

I don't get why Toronto doesn't build elevated lines using established freight train routes. It's so much cheaper to build that way.

[Chadillaccc]

It would be pretty cool if they did that too, make it a truly multi-modal transit metro system. Most of the freight lines are already used for GO trains though, so that might be difficult.

[TownGuy]

Yeah and the GO lines are likely going to be electrified at some point, especially the Lakeshore lines.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by logan5

The ultimate capacity for Skytrain is 25 700 people per hour per direction, which I don't believe is that much less than Toronto's capacity.

Skytrain is certainly a lot more cost effective than TTC subway. The extension to Vaughan will cost $2.6 billion for 8.6 km's = 302 million/km. The Evergreen Line in Vancouver will cost 1.4 billion for 11 km's = 127 million/km - less than half the cost.

I don't get why Toronto doesn't build elevated lines using established freight train routes. It's so much cheaper to build that way.

That's not really a fair comparison. Property acquisition and other similar constraints can bring the Skytrain cost very high. The proposed UBC Line,, for example, cost more than twice that of Evergreen even though it is only 1 km longer. But yes, I agree that elevated system is way cheaper...be nice if UBC was elevated...can solve a lot of funding issues.

[Innsertnamehere]

Toronto's capacity is 35,000PPHD with the yonge line being pushed north of 40,000 PPHD after 2017 when ATC comes online.

also Toronto will come in at 80.8km when the RT extension opens in 2019 or 2020 as well. (plus 12km of the underground portion of the Eglinton line, which while technically not RT as it thru runs with the surface portion, really is RT as it will operate at twice the frequency as the surface portion and operate in the exact same way as the yonge line with ATC signalling.)

Despite that, it is barely beating vancouver, and that is for a city 3 times it's size. vancouver has a damn good system, and it can probably claim the title for the best transit network in the country. (especially if/when the UBC line opens)

[TownGuy]

I wouldn't discount Toronto though because of GO especially if they get the lines electrified. GO runs on 450 km of track..massive potential there. Toronto also has an extensive streetcar network.

[Innsertnamehere]

streetcars don't mean crap when moving people around quickly, all they are is higher capacity buses that have positive effects on the built form of their surroundings.

GO will be interesting to see if it is counted. If the Transit tax is implemented we will see 15 minute electrified service on the Lakeshore lines, which is approaching Metro scale, capacity, and convenience. (4,800 PPHD)

[logan5]

Seems there was a plan back in the 80's for an automated grade separated system along some of the Go network and hydro corridors.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/gotransit/2107.shtml

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

streetcars don't mean crap when moving people around quickly, all they are is higher capacity buses that have positive effects on the built form of their surroundings.

Whoah...why is this said in such a way to imply this is a bad thing? I think anything that have positive effects on the built form of their surroundings should be a good thing. They may not move people quickly, but they totally enhance the city's streetscape.

I have been to Toronto myself and was quite impressed with their transit system. Granted it has a crazy mayor and all, but its transit system today is light years away from ANY Canadian city, or even most North American cities., regardless of how long the subway lines are. Any future expansion that moves forward is pure enhancement that will make it even way way better.

Yes Metro Vancouver may have the longest automated rapid transit system in 2016 for Canada once Evergreen Line is built, but anybody living South of Fraser will tell you that means squat. So its not all flowers and roses here in Metro Vancouver when it comes to transit. As a matter of fact, its one of the biggest contentious issues we've had since Translink was formed, and any future transit expansion we have will be subject to the 2014 referendum, including a possibility of saying "no more".

[Chadillaccc]

No, it will be the longest fully grade-separated metro system in Canada by 2016. Obviously it is already the longest automated rapid transit system in the country, because it is the only one.

I doubt the "no more" option will win.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also fun to note it is still the worlds 2nd longest automated system.

And once Evergreen Line is completed, it will only trailing Dubai by about 350m if the monorail there is included in the count.

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Yes Metro Vancouver may have the longest automated rapid transit system in 2016 for Canada once Evergreen Line is built, but anybody living South of Fraser will tell you that means squat. So its not all flowers and roses here in Metro Vancouver when it comes to transit. As a matter of fact, its one of the biggest contentious issues we've had since Translink was formed, and any future transit expansion we have will be subject to the 2014 referendum, including a possibility of saying "no more".

If you are comparing the metro area, then Mississauga and Richmond Hill won't care about how much km the Toronto Subway have either. Its all similar...

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

I wouldn't discount Toronto though because of GO especially if they get the lines electrified. GO runs on 450 km of track..massive potential there. Toronto also has an extensive streetcar network.

The Eglinton Line will take a Generation start to finish, however it will along with the DRL help improve the effectiveness of the subway lines. GO Train improvements won't take as long to complete and their impact will be more meaningful near term. The TTC new streetcar fleet, although not RT or subway, will also assist in smoothing traffic flow in the core.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

streetcars don't mean crap when moving people around quickly, all they are is higher capacity buses that have positive effects on the built form of their surroundings.

A True, but probably not a 100% fair statement.


Bus

Wikipedia
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TTC_T6H_5307N_Bus_2284.jpg

Streetcar

http://www.railforthevalley.com/latest-n...cities-%C2%A6-light-rail-transit-or-lrt/

[SFUVancouver]

I'm a fan of this side by side comparison that Cirrus Logic took in Portland, OR.


Photographer: Cirrus Logic

[Chadillaccc]

I really hope Vancouver goes through with their downtown streetcar network. In my opinion, they at least need to bring the Olympic line back online and put it in revenue service. Getting to Granville Island can be a bit of a hastle on Transit, but with that, it makes things so much easier.