CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[MayorOfChicago]

So what's the story with these three accelerated gates?

I know about the five AA gates opening soon, the 9 gates to start this year in Terminal 5 and apparently one gate that UA is adding (don't have any details on that other than seeing it in passing).

Where would these additional three be? Any news like that, even small, is exciting to me.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by MayorOfChicago

So what's the story with these three accelerated gates?

I know about the five AA gates opening soon, the 9 gates to start this year in Terminal 5 and apparently one gate that UA is adding (don't have any details on that other than seeing it in passing).

Where would these additional three be? Any news like that, even small, is exciting to me.

The three gates were part of the original plan. They are the three to the north of the 5 AA is building right now. Basically AA got nothing for their hissy fit and likely caved after they saw Emanuel wasn't backing down.

[MayorOfChicago]

Oh, hell, hopefully they can just add those in right now since they're still working on the building, or at least very quickly.

Anything we can get now is more than welcome. The rest looks like it won't start for a few years, until the 9 gate expansion of terminal 5 is complete.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by MayorOfChicago

Oh, hell, hopefully they can just add those in right now since they're still working on the building, or at least very quickly.

It's not that simple because what currently sits where those 3 gates are to be built are all the communication lines for the airport. They have to be moved before construction can begin, which is why it wasn't part of the original 5 gate plan. Not a huge blocker, it will just take more time.

The city can work on the T5 expansion, these 3 gates, and the two satellite concourses simultaneously without disrupting existing operations. Once those are done probably around 2021-22 is when T2 can start coming down.

[kbud]

Originally Posted by emathias

This is a confusing sentence because it's not clear whether you're being sarcastic or whether you don't know what the phrase "second to none" means. "Second to none" meaning, of course, that the subject is the clear leader or winner, with no competitor even in partial consideration for first place.

Also, my understanding is that United is simply not using 747s at all anymore, in any market. Despite the fact that, in theory, the longest 747 can carry over 800 passengers in some configurations, in practice the 777 class is often configured with more seating than many 747s anyway, as well as more cargo room. But more importantly the operating costs of the 2-engine 777 class is significantly less than the four-engine 747 class something on the order of 1/3 of a cent per seat, per mile cheaper, which amounts to savings of about $6,000 for trans-Pacific flights carrying 450 passengers. I don't know how many trans-Pacific flights United offers daily, system-wide, but say they have 20 flights a day with 450 passengers counting all flights in either direction, with $6,000 per trip savings, over a year that amounts to savings of nearly $44 million. United listed their 747-400 plane with 374 seats while their 77W lists a capacity of 366 seats, a net loss of only 8 seats. Granted, the 77W doesn't have any true First Class seats, but one has to wonder how many First Class seats United was actually selling, versus using for upgrades. First Class seats, despite their huge trans-oceanic list price, can operate at a loss if they're mostly used as upgrades and not actually being sold at face value.

It’s a joke. UA doesn’t treat Chicago as “2nd to none.” They’ve focused on SFO and Washington.

[nomarandlee]

Game on!
Great news. Sounds like a small sacrifice on the city's part in order to get this thing done

[k1052]

Rahm certainly has the pedal to the metal on this thing. Unless something extraordinary happens it'll be approved later this month and hopefully aviation is ready to start moving.

There is a pretty amazing amount of work happening already with the central deicing pad/taxiways/hangers/conrac/L stinger/cargo terminal/runway demo + construction all ongoing right now.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by nomarandlee

Game on!
Great news. Sounds like a small sacrifice on the city's part in order to get this thing done

Absolutely! Everyone is agreed with ORD expansion plans. Hopefully they will be approved sooner or later. Let make it happen.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by k1052

Rahm certainly has the pedal to the metal on this thing. Unless something extraordinary happens it'll be approved later this month and hopefully aviation is ready to start moving.

There is a pretty amazing amount of work happening already with the central deicing pad/taxiways/hangers/conrac/L stinger/cargo terminal/runway demo + construction all ongoing right now.

This is a huge deal, and just the construction alone will create a huge number of jobs. We’re talking 7-8 years of steady pay for a lot of people. That’s what I call a major injection of economic activity

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

This is a huge deal, and just the construction alone will create a huge number of jobs. We’re talking 7-8 years of steady pay for a lot of people. That’s what I call a major injection of economic activity

Indeed, it's equivalent to 9 Vista Towers.

[MayorOfChicago]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

It's not that simple because what currently sits where those 3 gates are to be built are all the communication lines for the airport. They have to be moved before construction can begin, which is why it wasn't part of the original 5 gate plan. Not a huge blocker, it will just take more time.

The city can work on the T5 expansion, these 3 gates, and the two satellite concourses simultaneously without disrupting existing operations. Once those are done probably around 2021-22 is when T2 can start coming down.

I believe I read they're going to finish the 9 gates at terminal 5 before they begin work on the two new terminals, sometime in 2020 maybe? I remember reading it and feeling a little let down that the new terminals won't start for at least a few years. I hope I'm wrong.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by MayorOfChicago

I believe I read they're going to finish the 9 gates at terminal 5 before they begin work on the two new terminals, sometime in 2020 maybe? I remember reading it and feeling a little let down that the new terminals won't start for at least a few years. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't see why they'd need to or want to wait. Both United and Delta have to get out of T2 before they can start demoing it and rebuilding which is going to take the longest of any project in the plan since it's the whole terminal not just the concourse.

Also the T5 expansion was supposed to have started construction already but I haven't seen any evidence of that.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by k1052

I don't see why they'd need to or want to wait. Both United and Delta have to get out of T2 before they can start demoing it and rebuilding which is going to take the longest of any project in the plan since it's the whole terminal not just the concourse.

Also the T5 expansion was supposed to have started construction already but I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Yes, once DL is moving out of T2. When the T5 expansion is completed. They will moved over to entire T5.

[ardecila]

I have not traveled through any airports with major terminal reconstruction like this, so I don't have any firsthand experience... How will it work logistically to take T2 out of commission for the 3-4 years (maybe more) that the reconstruction will take?

Understandably, T2 is the smallest of the existing terminals and therefore will cause the least disruption if it's taken out of service. But where do Delta, and United's regional flights, go once they no longer have a terminal? Can T5 accommodate Delta AND all international flights once the expansion there is complete? How does it affect security and customs screening to have domestic flights at an international terminal?

[mj2010]

Have browsed this forum for years, but made an account and first-time posting.

Was digging around the internet to find more information about this. City of Chicago's aviation committee has posted the agenda item on their website with the full draft of the new lease agreement. Thought folks on here might be interested since it has tons of details...

The full document is over 2,000 PAGES LONG. But, there are details of what they anticipate the full development will look like even past the initial ten years, including additional satellite concourses to the west and the western screening facility (page 363). I took a screen shot of it so folks wouldn't have to dig through that many pages, but I can't get it to post on here.

Full document from the City of Chicago can be accessed at: https://chicago.legistar.com/Legisla...tions=&Search=

Clicking the link next to "Attachment" starts the download of the PDF that has the full details.

As a first-timer and seeing all of the stuff about quotes/sharing, hoping I gave enough info. Let me know if I should share differently in future.

[spyguy]

^I tried reading through that the other day but quite long and detailed as you said.

Perhaps less interesting, but wasn't sure if the new AA hangar was ever posted?

[k1052]

Originally Posted by ardecila

I have not traveled through any airports with major terminal reconstruction like this, so I don't have any firsthand experience... How will it work logistically to take T2 out of commission for the 3-4 years (maybe more) that the reconstruction will take?

Understandably, T2 is the smallest of the existing terminals and therefore will cause the least disruption if it's taken out of service. But where do Delta, and United's regional flights, go once they no longer have a terminal? Can T5 accommodate Delta AND all international flights once the expansion there is complete? How does it affect security and customs screening to have domestic flights at an international terminal?

Since T5 is common use, yes. There is a lot of downtime for the existing gates that would make it pretty easy to turn some extra domestic flights plus the additional gates they'll put in for the expansion. Should be more than sufficient to service Delta's schedule.

Domestic passengers will simply deplane into the concourse like any other terminal (instead of going though border control).

[k1052]

The lease agreement is fascinating reading if you're into this stuff.

Had no idea there is to be a sterile corridor from the new United S-1 concourse to take arriving international passengers to the new CBP facility in rebuilt T2. That's a big operational advantage for United.

[k1052]

What the city thinks ORD will eventually look after this and a couple more expansions. The phase 1 items are what the city is going to do now.

[nomarandlee]

So in terms of design, I'm curious what are peoples wants in terms of the design of the new terminals/gateway.

- Would people here like to see a single uniform motif design throughout the whole airport as much as possible?

- Should the airport be divided into essentially 3 different airport designs with T1 and the new T2/T3 and then T5 going into their own design directions?

- Should Terminal 1 basic design stay and only be subtly upgraded? I still think it mostly still holds up well after +30 years. Is it time to try to integrate and unify the design with the rest of the new airport?

- Should the concourses have slight nuanced differences but based on a similar "theme" a'la the River Walk?

- Would you like to see a more "artful" design aesthetic (Charles DeGaulle 2) or a more upgraded 2nd Chicago School Mies motif that I would characterize as ORD's T2 and T3 now?