Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

One wonders if an independent Quebec would remain a member of the Commonwealth, or would this be considered a colonial vestige to be amputated???

I don't think it would be that ideological or passionate on either side. Without knowing what those negotiations tend to look like in reality, I guess my mind just goes to visa breaks vs. mineral investment capability or something like that.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by someone123

For all the talk of seamless integration with the US we have very limited mobility and labour rights in the US yet we mostly live along that border.

Our US situation really sucks. You can be Nexus, whatever, those visas still aren't easy.

I have been looking at situations that put me in New York on an L-1. It could work but it's a process. And sometimes I'm not sure I want to leave Scandinavia, although I'd like to be in my own mother tongue (and arguably mother culture) for the first time in a quarter century.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think this is one area of potential tension in Quebec and the "if Montreal becomes popular in China and you get booted from your apartment that's just how it is and if you have any problem with it you might be racist" attitude may not fly there. Then again, it's hard to tell what will happen beforehand and there are people who like the cash that flows in.

Good post overall, even if those truths are hard.

In your last paragraph here you touch upon a pretty big difference between Montreal and Toronto-Vancouver.

Though obviously there are some Montrealers who have the Toronto-Vancouver view of things, and vice versa.

But we all know what the prevailing views are in all three places.

[niwell]

Oddly enough, English adoption in sub-Saharan Africa is often considered to be a bit of a step in the direction of decolonialization. While that seems backwards at face value, it's more of a recognition that English is necessary for greater international economic integration. The eventual goal would probably be something like km is describing in Scandinavian countries - local affairs would still be done with local languages but the broader understanding of English seen as necessary for growth/independence related pursuits.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I hadn't heard about that. I guess having left does matter, and I'm not up on the latest at all. Because that is surprising to me.

Initially, I thought "I bet that there are a few CEOs in Sweden and Denmark who are from France or Ireland or something and don't speak the language", but I couldn't find any. I knew executives in Denmark who were non-Danish speakers, but not CEOs. I think the curtain falls before that level, when I think about it. I have actually heard EU McKinsey-types grousing about the "Danish boy's club" they thought was holding them back in Copenhagen, and this was plainly that.

A British friend once said of Denmark that "this country is just a little private club for the Danes", and he meant it in anger. At the time and still, the line just makes me think "what on earth else should it be?".

I am a bit surprised to hear this about Denmark, and while I suppose if you look hard enough it's likely possible to find at least one CEO (currently or in the recent past) there who doesn't speak Danish, your post does make me think that maybe Quebec sovereignists do have a point on this one.

Quebec sovereignists are fond of bringing up stuff like when Chrylser and Daimler merged 20 years ago, the Germans told the American execs that they had to learn German as they wouldn't change the language of their meetings to English just for them.

On another totally different note, it's also often brought up that FC Barcelona has players sign their contracts and Catalan and star players have clauses in their contracts that require them to integrate with the Catalan language and culture.

[suburbanite]

I strongly presume that if the Vancouver/Toronto phenomenon started to occur in Montreal, that there would be a legislative reaction. Likely one that would appear too blunt and unnuanced to Anglo sensibilities, but also similar to what has been discussed in quieter corners of our society for over ten years, and finally bubbled up into the national spotlight and subsequent federal policy this past year.

It would undoubtedly be labeled as further proliferation of "Quebec racism", but many would quietly be jealous of the decisive action.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Oddly enough, English adoption in sub-Saharan Africa is often considered to be a bit of a step in the direction of decolonialization. While that seems backwards at face value, it's more of a recognition that English is necessary for greater international economic integration. The eventual goal would probably be something like km is describing in Scandinavian countries - local affairs would still be done with local languages but the broader understanding of English seen as necessary for growth/independence related pursuits.

I suppose that in the southernmost part of the continent, at least part of that is related to a desire to shake off as much as possible the legacy of Afrikaans and its speakers, and all the bad history that is associated with it.

To a much lesser degree, you have some of that attitude towards French in some of France's (and Belgium's) former African colonies.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

your post does make me think that maybe Quebec sovereignists do have a point on this one.

“Maîtres Chez Nous” is still what secures the bag. One of the reasons that Quebec irks Canadians sometimes is because it has shown itself willing to use illiberal means to attain certain goals. But this isn't so strange..."deplatforming works".

[niwell]

I spent a day in Copenhagen cycling and drinking with a Polish chef who'd lived there for 7 years. He didn't use the exact same words but certainly relayed the sentiment of "private club for the Danes". He certainly wasn't annoyed about it in the same way that the McKinsey type would be, but moreso that no matter how hard he tried he'd never *really* be considered Danish. Despite looking the part and speaking the language fluently - accent notwithstanding which apparently was the tell. Though being from Eastern Europe the ultimate sentiment was more of a "so it goes" view.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I strongly presume that if the Vancouver/Toronto phenomenon started to occur in Montreal, that there would be a legislative reaction. Likely one that would appear too blunt and unnuanced to Anglo sensibilities, but also similar to what has been discussed in quieter corners of our society for over ten years, and finally bubbled up into the national spotlight and subsequent federal policy this past year.

It would undoubtedly be labeled as further proliferation of "Quebec racism", but many would quietly be jealous of the decisive action.

I'm not always sure these things are as ideological as they seem. Before the eviction scenario, there would have been years of a scenario in which real estate owners are lifted high on waves of foreign capital. That creates a constituency, and the "racism vs. self-ownership" debate would likely be a proxy war between these people and renters etc.

The values talk would be largely post hoc.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec sovereignists are fond of bringing up stuff like when Chrylser and Daimler merged 20 years ago, the Germans told the American execs that they had to learn German as they wouldn't change the language of their meetings to English just for them.

On another totally different note, it's also often brought up that FC Barcelona has players sign their contracts and Catalan and star players have clauses in their contracts that require them to integrate with the Catalan language and culture.

There's a balance of power present that enables these types of interactions though. You have to have something highly coveted, a competitive advantage, a near monopoly, etc.

An independent Quebec operating (at least initially) as a resource-based economy may not enjoy the luxury that the most famous football team in the world does. Commodity traders in Dubai aren't telling their counterparties in Houston to learn Arabic or find another dealer.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by niwell

I spent a day in Copenhagen cycling and drinking with a Polish chef who'd lived there for 7 years. He didn't use the exact same words but certainly relayed the sentiment of "private club for the Danes". He certainly wasn't annoyed about it in the same way that the McKinsey type would be, but moreso that no matter how hard he tried he'd never *really* be considered Danish. Despite looking the part and speaking the language fluently - accent notwithstanding which apparently was the tell. Though being from Eastern Europe the ultimate sentiment was more of a "so it goes" view.

They are a bit clannish.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I'm not always sure these things are as ideological as they seem. Before the eviction scenario, there would have been years of a scenario in which real estate owners are lifted high on waves of foreign capital. That creates a constituency, and the "racism vs. self-ownership" debate would likely be a proxy war between these people and renters etc.

The values talk would be largely post hoc.

The influence and effect of foreign money isn't always transparent. I mean all you have to do is browse the 10-year "Canada's Housing Bubble Deemed Close to Bursting" thread to see a decade of arguments that foreign buyers have little to no effect on the housing market. In this vein, you could presumably have people in Montreal actively benefitting from real estate prices juiced by foreign capital, while still believing that it is purely because Montreal is a desirable place to live and a growing economic powerhouse. My point is, I don't think "people that have made money from increased real estate prices" would be a cohesive political unit all fighting against some legislative attempt to curb foreign purchases.

However, maybe Montrealers would have the benefit of seeing this whole scenario play out in Toronto/Vancouver and would be more attune to the underlying forces at work. In that case you could imagine the battle lines being more clearly drawn.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

There's a balance of power present that enables these types of interactions though. You have to have something highly coveted, a competitive advantage, a near monopoly, etc.

An independent Quebec operating (at least initially) as a resource-based economy may not enjoy the luxury that the most famous football team in the world does. Commodity traders in Dubai aren't telling their counterparties in Houston to learn Arabic or find another dealer.

Of course.

It's nonetheless still noteworthy that Barça has imposed this while still remaining one of the top clubs in the world. And that speaking Catalan was once effectively banned in public there - within my lifetime.

[samne]

Look at Australia for nationalist sentiment in the Anglosphere. I found quite the Australia for/by Aussies there.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

They are a bit clannish.

It's a really well-run country, though. Better than here. Here's how doctors work, for example: you move to a new apartment or house, and you get a letter from the health service with a list of 3-5 family doctors in your neighborhood with a little bio for each of them, age, size of practice, education. You pick one and that's your doctor, you go to him whenever there's an issue, he handles all referrals etc.

I had private healthcare there but never felt a need to use it. Here, I use it exclusively, and that's because the first line in Sweden is calling "1177.se" and they direct you to a hospital or a clinic, often with long wait times, whereas private gets you immediately sent to a private hospital to the specialist of your choice.

Danish GDP per capita is USD 68k vs. Sweden at USD 58k and Canada USD 57k (IMF, nominal).

69 vs. 63 vs. 57 (IMF PPP)

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The influence and effect of foreign money isn't always transparent. I mean all you have to do is browse the 10-year "Canada's Housing Bubble Deemed Close to Bursting" thread to see a decade of arguments that foreign buyers have little to no effect on the housing market. In this vein, you could presumably have people in Montreal actively benefitting from real estate prices juiced by foreign capital, while still believing that it is purely because Montreal is a desirable place to live and a growing economic powerhouse. My point is, I don't think "people that have made money from increased real estate prices" would be a cohesive political unit all fighting against some legislative attempt to curb foreign purchases.

That's fair, and as a Torontonian you would know better than I.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

There's a balance of power present that enables these types of interactions though. You have to have something highly coveted, a competitive advantage, a near monopoly, etc.

An independent Quebec operating (at least initially) as a resource-based economy may not enjoy the luxury that the most famous football team in the world does. Commodity traders in Dubai aren't telling their counterparties in Houston to learn Arabic or find another dealer.

I’m pretty sure that we could sell power to the Yankees with French-language-only contracts, if we really insisted on it

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

“Maîtres Chez Nous” is still what secures the bag. One of the reasons that Quebec irks Canadians sometimes is because it has shown itself willing to use illiberal means to attain certain goals. But this isn't so strange..."deplatforming works".

After reading your first post but before seeing this one, I was actually going to say the Quiet Revolution motto of the Lesage Liberals could almost translate to that in Danish: “Let Denmark be the Danes’ private club”.

For the record, I totally share your “what else do you want it to be? *Your* playground?!?” sentiment.

(“Denmark: Yours to discover/grab” Maybe that’s what your buddy expected!)

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec sovereignists are fond of bringing up stuff like when Chrylser and Daimler merged 20 years ago, the Germans told the American execs that they had to learn German as they wouldn't change the language of their meetings to English just for them.

An aside: That merger was far from a match made in heaven, from a casual observer of the auto industry.

More like: How one can ruin a perfectly profitable company (Chrysler Corporation), chase the talent away, and leave the husk for someone else after feasting vampire-like on it for the better part of a decade.

If the goal is to work cooperatively, acknowledging the cultural differences and different styles of doing things and using the best of both to accomplish great things is better. (Seemingly applicable to Canada/Quebec, no?) Think Airbus and not Daimler-Chrysler.