General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

The sky isn't falling, Mr. Little.

The worst case scenario, in my mind, is that some GC is cutting corners in order to offer enticing rates and their buildings start falling apart in 5-10-20 years. Landmark is a great example. That building is crap. The GC cut every corner in the book from electrical to plumbing to the HVAC stacks. They've been stuck in lawsuits over there for a decade almost and in the mean there's no sales value in a condo there and the rents are incredibly depressed. Central and Camelback with all utilities included for $1000ish a month.

Imagine a downtown phoenix full of Landmarks. It makes me shudder.

If Katerra was cutting corners to offer cut-rate construction then I am glad they're not involved in my city any longer.

Now, lets talk about the fact that Phoenix is the fastest growing city in the country with a severe housing shortage, no end in sight with our increase in property values and a booming economy. Remember, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a GC. If there's money to be made someone will make it.

Well...we did have 1 new forumer here bashing the hell out of Link. Although I think the consensus was "all new building have issues", maybe he could have been on to something in regards to Katerra and corner cutting.

[YourBuddy]

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news...cx_testVariant=cx_9&cx_artPos=3#cxrecs_s

I’ll post this here as well. Good stuff about the growth, but also makes me question leadership if they were already worried about over building downtown.

[biggus diggus]

It's very normal to have a few issues in every building. It's not normal to have so many there's a lawsuit. I don't know anything more than anyone else about what happened duty katerra but my take is better now than later.

[combusean]

Katerra was probably not the original sin of bad construction. They did Portland on the Park and Proxy 333 which to my knowledge have no construction defects, although those are older projects.

I still think that their bids were just subsidized by their financiers.

The GC, if there ever was one, was never to blame for the shitshow that turned out to be Landmark--the condo conversion "developer" knew what they were doing all along. They gave it a fresh coat of paint without any upgrades to the now 50-year-old mechanical system and for some reason nobody picked up on it. That tower has been a herd of white elephants since condomania for 15 years now.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by combusean

Katerra was probably not the original sin of bad construction. They did Portland on the Park and Proxy 333 which to my knowledge have no construction defects, although those are older projects.

I still think that their bids were just subsidized by their financiers.

The GC, if there ever was one, was never to blame for the shitshow that turned out to be Landmark--the condo conversion "developer" knew what they were doing all along. They gave it a fresh coat of paint without any upgrades to the now 50-year-old mechanical system and for some reason nobody picked up on it. That tower has been a herd of white elephants since condomania for 15 years now.

Well technically, it was UEB that did Portland on the Park and Proxy 333. Katerra bought out UEB in 2019.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by combusean

The GC, if there ever was one, was never to blame for the shitshow that turned out to be Landmark--the condo conversion "developer" knew what they were doing all along. They gave it a fresh coat of paint without any upgrades to the now 50-year-old mechanical system and for some reason nobody picked up on it. That tower has been a herd of white elephants since condomania for 15 years now.

Curious how much you know about Landmark. The developer AND the contractors have been losing lawsuits to the homeowner's association.

Not sure how you can say a GC isn't to blame. Contracting is a licensed and regulated business. If you remolded a building and touched the plumbing then you'll need to bring it up to code. They did that, very poorly.

Sure, the developer may have said "do it as inexpensively as possible" but as a licensed and regulated GC it is solely your responsibility to do the job right.

[PHX31]

How does the City and its inspectors handle such large projects as a high-rise building? It seems as though they'd nearly have an on-site daily inspection team. They likely don't have the man-power and budget to do that, but in reality how many corners can a GC cut? They don't have free reign to build whatever they want out of code.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Well...that was fast. Chalk up the first hit from Katerra. All construction equipment has been removed from the Skye lot minus a water truck which is from another company. Sigh

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by PHX31

How does the City and its inspectors handle such large projects as a high-rise building? It seems as though they'd nearly have an on-site daily inspection team. They likely don't have the man-power and budget to do that, but in reality how many corners can a GC cut? They don't have free reign to build whatever they want out of code.

You'd be surprised. I looked at a house for sale in Sunnyslope, a new build up on Dunlap and about 14th Street. That house is absolute garbage, I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole that you're holding. Going through all the inspection notes it looks like it was a disaster the whole time but eventually got the approval for occupancy. That stuff happens.

So, basically, you can do the job correctly but use garbage materials and do everything the absolute bare minimum. It's a terrible recipe in a sfh, but in these buildings we only need to take a look at Landmark to see what can happen.

[DesertRay]

Katerra is dead. Bankrupt. Long live Katerra.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Curious how much you know about Landmark. The developer AND the contractors have been losing lawsuits to the homeowner's association.

Not sure how you can say a GC isn't to blame. Contracting is a licensed and regulated business. If you remolded a building and touched the plumbing then you'll need to bring it up to code. They did that, very poorly.

Sure, the developer may have said "do it as inexpensively as possible" but as a licensed and regulated GC it is solely your responsibility to do the job right.

I have no reason to suspect they touched the mechanical, plumbing, electrical, or anything else that would have required permits with a possible exception of the buildout of the common areas (I've never been in there either before or after the "remodel," so I can't comment).

I don't think the "remodel" involved licensed professionals with the exception of the engineering for the plat map.

[biggus diggus]

So they never would have been able to get a project done of that magnitude without permitting. Are you suggesting they just flew under the radar?

The permits and inspection notes are all visible. Landmark had awful construction defects that they/we are still dealing with fifteen years later. They cut every corner in the book and it bit about a decade later.

I'm suggesting that this might end up being the case with katerra's projects and I'll take the option we got if given the choice.

[Code5]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

Well...that was fast. Chalk up the first hit from Katerra. All construction equipment has been removed from the Skye lot minus a water truck which is from another company. Sigh

So Skye on 6th is dead? Or just postponed until they can find a new construction company?

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Code5

So Skye on 6th is dead? Or just postponed until they can find a new construction company?

The latter. I guess it could die if other GCs are way too expensive compared to what Katerra proposed.

[biggus diggus]

This is really sad for a lot of people:

"The Information confirmed that Katerra’s shuttering is indeed a result of the pandemic; the closure of construction sites, combined with rising material and labor costs, drove the company even deeper into the red. That’s to say nothing of the several rounds of layoffs Katerra endured in 2020, when it slashed its workforce from over 8,500 employees worldwide to only 2,400."

https://www.archpaper.com/2021/06/prefab-startup-wunderkind-katerra-is-shutting-down/

Labor shortage and materials costs. Exactly what we've been talking about being reasons for these delays.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by Code5

So Skye on 6th is dead? Or just postponed until they can find a new construction company?

If the news reporting is correct in that Katerra is working with it's current clients to find replacement GC's, then most likely just delayed until they get another contractor set up. I'm going to guess about 3 months minimum although I am not exactly sure how long it takes for a new contractor to get set up for and start construction. But it's not going to be a fast process. They will basically be starting from scratch with a new contractor. They will need to hire construction workers, although it's possible they can bring in the former Katerra construction crew much more quickly than starting a completely new hiring process. They will also need to work out the new contracts, get the needed materials (which will be tough if they don't already have supply of materials in their supply yards), get construction equipment, find a new GM, etc..

This is all conjecture, but I'm hoping the news is correct and maybe that Katerra had already started the process of assisting with finding new GC's weeks or even months ago. If so, maybe new GC's have already been selected and they may be able to onboard the current construction workers from Katerra and even buy out materials and equipment that Katerra may already have.

Hopefully, more news comes out soon regarding any of this.

[YourBuddy]

The Phx Biz article I posted said the official groundbreaking was delayed until later this month for Sky because of the Katerra stuff. Hopefully it does t take any longer than that.

[biggus diggus]

It's a domino effect finding a new GC, saguaro, you're right about that. It won't be fast if it even happens. I am optimistic, though. If there's money to be made someone will appear.

Permitting, materials, subs.... there's a lot of moving parts!

[DesertRay]

I'm cautiously optimistic that the canals will be the next attraction that developers build around more regularly.

'Cookie Cutter' Or 'Right Type'? Phoenix Council Approves Grand Canal Project
By Christina Estes
Published: Thursday, June 3, 2021 - 8:32am
Updated: Thursday, June 3, 2021 - 8:33am


For months, residents of a historic Phoenix neighborhood have been fighting an out-of-state developer over an apartment project. On Wednesday, the City Council voted on the proposal along the Grand Canal in the central city.

Phoenix calls it the Grand Canalscape, a 12-mile system for people to safely walk, run and bike. It’s a source of pride for city leaders and neighbors like Ken Waters who called the proposed 218-unit apartment complex the anti-prototype for the area.

“You're setting the model, a cookie cutter precedent for the rest of Canalscape,” he said. “In its present form, it’s a traffic bomb. Twelve hundred cars per day on the inside of the neighborhood, no arterial streets, they’re all trapped.”

Waters lives in Pierson Place, a neighborhood on the National Register of Historic Places. The boundaries are generally the Grand Canal to Camelback Road and Central to 7th avenues.

Texas-based Trinsic Residential wants to build on 3-acres on the southeast corner of 3rd Avenue and Coolidge Street. Jason Morris, the developer’s representative, said they already worked to appease residents by reducing density and height on the four-story buildings, removing some proposed balconies to ensure privacy for homeowners and creating publicly accessible green space along the canal.

“This case is an exceptional example of the right type of housing at the right location within the right portion of the city,” he said.

Local business owners who spoke in support of the project said more residents would boost their sales. Several residents said they support development but not this specific project.

Councilwoman Laura Pastor, who represents the district, proposed an extra 20 inches of space between the curb and building facade along Coolidge Street and 3rd Avenue so there would be a minimum of 21 feet, 8 inches. She also instructed the developer to work with residents over street parking concerns. The full council agreed and approved the zoning request.

[downtownphxguy12]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

If the news reporting is correct in that Katerra is working with it's current clients to find replacement GC's, then most likely just delayed until they get another contractor set up. I'm going to guess about 3 months minimum although I am not exactly sure how long it takes for a new contractor to get set up for and start construction. But it's not going to be a fast process. They will basically be starting from scratch with a new contractor. They will need to hire construction workers, although it's possible they can bring in the former Katerra construction crew much more quickly than starting a completely new hiring process. They will also need to work out the new contracts, get the needed materials (which will be tough if they don't already have supply of materials in their supply yards), get construction equipment, find a new GM, etc..

This is all conjecture, but I'm hoping the news is correct and maybe that Katerra had already started the process of assisting with finding new GC's weeks or even months ago. If so, maybe new GC's have already been selected and they may be able to onboard the current construction workers from Katerra and even buy out materials and equipment that Katerra may already have.

Hopefully, more news comes out soon regarding any of this.

most GC don't have many of their own employees. they might have a project engineer, project managers, site supervisors, safety managers. But its the subcontractors doing all the work. If the owner can get a new GC on board. they just need to hire the first couple subs in to get the project rolling along.

We do commercial hvac work and have been hired while the building while the structure was still going up.