Circuit of the Americas Development Updates

[turn1]

Originally Posted by the Genral

I was a little disappointed and embarrassed by all the empty seats especially since this event garnered a sizable worldwide tv audience, but I didn't help much by not being able to attend. But from what I read, Epstein and the race teams weren't all that concerned about it. There's guaranteed prize money and allotted points regardless of the fan turnout, and the drivers got to compete on a world class race track. What I didn't see was any shots of downtown or much talk about it, or a whole lot of banter about the track from the drivers like you do with F1. Frankly, there's was a fraction of the buzz that F1 generates. Loved the rolling start and no limit racing. That made it more fun to watch. Just want to mention that when Indy races at TMS, there are quite a few empty seats there too. Another thing I found interesting was that COTA was putting up a $100,000 bonus despite losing out on 25 mil and relatively poor attendance. I do hope they do a better job promoting next year. I saw a ton of adverts regarding the Indy 500 leading up to this race. I know the racers are here to race, get points and get paid, but I'm sure they notice all the empty seats. Would hate to see a been there done that happen and the loss of incentive to come here every year because of that.

Yeah it was disappointing. There's also a big difference between TMS's and COTA's seating capacities. 75K people at TMS will still leave 40K empty seats on the front stretch alone. 75K people at COTA under this base seating configuration would fill all the reserved seats and still leave 40+K people in general admission. There were a total of only a bit over 30K reserved seats for this race, in the Main, T1, T12, and T15 grandstands, and those grandstands only looked about 1/4 to 1/3 full on average (if I'm being generous). I heard before the race that COTA had only sold a little less than 20K tickets, and from what we saw on Sunday, even that seems optimistic now. And Friday and Saturday, the crowds were really, really small, even in comparison to Sunday.

Gotta disagree tho about the track limits thing. I don't see how it adds anything to the racing, and it actually rewards people for mistakes, or at least it fails to punish them and fails to reward the better teams and drivers for better setup and driving.

Completely agree re: the lack of promotion, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to get better. It's been like this from the very beginning.

[the Genral]

Originally Posted by turn1

Gotta disagree tho about the track limits thing. I don't see how it adds anything to the racing, and it actually rewards people for mistakes, or at least it fails to punish them and fails to reward the better teams and drivers for better setup and driving.

I see your point, but INDY was more concerned about having a more competitive and entertaining race with reduced attrition, in fact they needed the race to be exciting over technical. Still, it did feel a little like cheating...going so far off the beaten path. But....it certainly made the corners a whole lot wider which makes me think NASCAR could run a successful race here without the major attrition Kurt Busch predicted when he drove the track in his stock car a while back. There are a plethora of reasons why they never will of course... for one, I don't think there's enough room on pit road for 40+ cars. But many more fans would show up. What's hurting both INDY and NASCAR is the lack of bigtime names. My favorites in both are long gone especially with INDY so even being a big race fan, I'm losing interest. Part of the reason if not the biggest reason INDY came to COTA was to bring attention to itself. I'd say the results were a push. If next year chokes again on attendance, I don't expect INDY to be here long.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by the Genral

I see your point, but INDY was more concerned about having a more competitive and entertaining race with reduced attrition, in fact they needed the race to be exciting over technical. Still, it did feel a little like cheating...going so far off the beaten path. But....it certainly made the corners a whole lot wider which makes me think NASCAR could run a successful race here without the major attrition Kurt Busch predicted when he drove the track in his stock car a while back. There are a plethora of reasons why they never will of course... for one, I don't think there's enough room on pit road for 40+ cars. But many more fans would show up. What's hurting both INDY and NASCAR is the lack of bigtime names. My favorites in both are long gone especially with INDY so even being a big race fan, I'm losing interest. Part of the reason if not the biggest reason INDY came to COTA was to bring attention to itself. I'd say the results were a push. If next year chokes again on attendance, I don't expect INDY to be here long.

Why would adherence to track limits lead to increased attrition? The one major incident was actually at least partially caused by going so wide at T19 and then re-entering across the kerbs.

And yeah, I agree IndyCar won't be here beyond their current contract, if even that long. Epstein talked about building the crowd year by year, but that's not the way it works, esp at COTA where the local promoter (COTA) puts the absolute minimum of effort into promotion. The first race has the biggest crowd. It doesn't grow from there.

He also said they were expecting 30,000 on Sunday. I don't think they got anywhere near that. More like half that. I'd be surprised if they even pulled 30k for the whole weekend, regardless of what they say later to the state.

[Jdawgboy]

Personally I thought the race was pretty exciting. Lots of battling. I do hope it becomes more successful going forward.

[We vs us]

Originally Posted by turn1

Nope. Nothing's confirmed there, but they're better off going there than Miami imho. They seem awfully infatuated with Miami tho, so who knows. However, it's not so much that those places have been trying for a race as much as it's F1 trying to get a race in those places (except in the case of Weehawken).

And to be clear, I'm not sure if what I heard applied to just the condos, to the hotel, or to both.

The hotel's not dead yet.

Not sure about condos, but don't count out the hotel.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by We vs us

The hotel's not dead yet.

Not sure about condos, but don't count out the hotel.

Yeah I was wondering about that. But good luck keeping up the occupancy of a hotel of any size out there.

[We vs us]

Originally Posted by turn1

Yeah I was wondering about that. But good luck keeping up the occupancy of a hotel of any size out there.

FWIW, as a hotelier, I totally agree. Still — from what I’m hearing the COTA folks are actively courting brands.

[StoOgE]

Originally Posted by turn1

Yeah I was wondering about that. But good luck keeping up the occupancy of a hotel of any size out there.

My guess is they have enough concerts and events out there they are planning on super high per night fees to pay the bills.

During F1 they could prolly pull 3k a night. Concerts less than that but they've done a good job with on site nightlife to try and keep concert goers after the concert ends.

It's weird. But my guess is they're trying to pull in more Motorsports. If they can get Nascar on-site that would be a big get.

Hopefully the bold can burry the hatchet with PSV and become a feeder team for Austin FC.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by We vs us

FWIW, as a hotelier, I totally agree. Still — from what I’m hearing the COTA folks are actively courting brands.

Yeah they've been trying to get a hotel out there since they opened back in 2012, and have been saying there's one "in the works" ever since then, too. It could happen eventually though, I guess.

[turn1]

DP. My bad.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by StoOgE

My guess is they have enough concerts and events out there they are planning on super high per night fees to pay the bills.

During F1 they could prolly pull 3k a night. Concerts less than that but they've done a good job with on site nightlife to try and keep concert goers after the concert ends.

It's weird. But my guess is they're trying to pull in more Motorsports. If they can get Nascar on-site that would be a big get.

Hopefully the bold can burry the hatchet with PSV and become a feeder team for Austin FC.

Yeah the only way a hotel would work imho is if it's a very small, expensive one, but I'm certainly no expert. They should be able to do ok during any big race weekend, but that's what ... 9 nights a year? And let's face it, who travels to Austin to spend a lot of money staying in Elroy? They really don't have that many concerts, either, or track events.

Their best bet re: motorsports would be to do a better job trying to retain the ones they've attracted in the past. They've already lost V8SC, WEC, IMSA, and the X Games. Adding NASCAR would be great, but not likely. IndyCar was a good get, but lets see how long they suffer nonexistent local promotion and tiny crowds before packing up and moving on somewhere else. There are only so many racing series out there, and COTA's going through them at an alarming rate.

[StoOgE]

Originally Posted by turn1

Yeah the only way a hotel would work imho is if it's a very small, expensive one, but I'm certainly no expert. They should be able to do ok during any big race weekend, but that's what ... 9 nights a year? And let's face it, who travels to Austin to spend a lot of money staying in Elroy? They really don't have that many concerts, either, or track events.

Their best bet re: motorsports would be to do a better job trying to retain the ones they've attracted in the past. They've already lost V8SC, WEC, IMSA, and the X Games. Adding NASCAR would be great, but not likely. IndyCar was a good get, but lets see how long they suffer nonexistent local promotion and tiny crowds before packing up and moving on somewhere else. There are only so many racing series out there, and COTA's going through them at an alarming rate.

I think if we're being really fair to COTA part of the issue is there are only 4 motorsports that have any real number of fans.

F1
Indy (which has seen better days, but seems to be on the upswing)
Moto GP
Nascar

The rest sort of are what they are. It's why tracks like the revamped Texas World Speedway never made it. You can bring in all of the V8SC and IMSA you want, but those are never going to foot the bill. V8SC was trying a thing in the US and everyone just didn't care for a very Aussie specific sport.

I do ultimately agree that Epstein has done a horrible job trying to curate a local race-fan community. We have one of the best road courses in the world and when I tell friends I'm headed to the Indycar races they said "Oh, I thought they canceled those years ago".

They should be doing a better job pushing F1 and MotoGP as a brand on the central texas community. Or selling the Indy race as the "Indy 500 comes to Austin". The billboards they had were basically "come see Muse, and also there are some cars" and frankly I think most people associate racing with Nascar in this country for all the baggage that comes with.*

Even his treatment of the Bold has been a "I hope the local soccer community does all our marketing work for us. Also, I just pissed off the entire local soccer community". Compare that with what PSV is doing with monthly meet and greets and working with the Anthem.

Epstein should be doing that with local short tracks and racing fanbases.. and maybe cultivating a Sunday morning F1 watch party on tape delay at a local bar. Like, do anything other than rent billboards for 2 weeks before a race. They also need to close some of the seating for these smaller events. Like, if you can't fill the giant amount of seats you've got on race weekend, then tarp some off with pretty banners and consolidate the fans into less sections so it feels more like an event and less like a sparely attended failure.


*I actually like Nascar and have been to about 15 races in my life. I'm just saying urban liberals may or may not want to associate with something that has a reputation of a certain uh.. baskets of deplorables fanbase.**

**I grew up a redneck child in a trailer park, so I'm passing no judgement.

[the Genral]

StoOe, I really liked your post. Well said and spot on what I was thinking also. My added two cents...F1 and MotoGP are snooty. Epstein is snooty, COTA is most successful catering to the snooty. Twice a year Epstein was right to choose snooty. He is probably letting his track and those two main events do all the promoting for him for other events. Since he does very little to connect to the people of Austin and the rest of Texas, but rather to the snooty, he would be well advised not to miss the deadline for a shot at 20+ mil next year. He going to need it.
Also, just an observation...the main grandstands are anything but grand. They must be the smallest grandstands in F1. The entry road is too narrow, the parking too limited, the soccer stadium smaller than High School stadiums, how can someone think so big and so small at the same time?

[The ATX]

KBVO is televising the Bold's home/franchise opener against San Antonio at COTA Saturday night at 7:30PM.

[The ATX]

The game just ended and Austin beat S.A. 1-0, and the game was a sellout. A lot of the crowd was obviously from S.A. though.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by StoOgE

I think if we're being really fair to COTA part of the issue is there are only 4 motorsports that have any real number of fans.

F1
Indy (which has seen better days, but seems to be on the upswing)
Moto GP
Nascar

The rest sort of are what they are. It's why tracks like the revamped Texas World Speedway never made it. You can bring in all of the V8SC and IMSA you want, but those are never going to foot the bill. V8SC was trying a thing in the US and everyone just didn't care for a very Aussie specific sport.

I do ultimately agree that Epstein has done a horrible job trying to curate a local race-fan community. We have one of the best road courses in the world and when I tell friends I'm headed to the Indycar races they said "Oh, I thought they canceled those years ago".

They should be doing a better job pushing F1 and MotoGP as a brand on the central texas community. Or selling the Indy race as the "Indy 500 comes to Austin". The billboards they had were basically "come see Muse, and also there are some cars" and frankly I think most people associate racing with Nascar in this country for all the baggage that comes with.*

Even his treatment of the Bold has been a "I hope the local soccer community does all our marketing work for us. Also, I just pissed off the entire local soccer community". Compare that with what PSV is doing with monthly meet and greets and working with the Anthem.

Epstein should be doing that with local short tracks and racing fanbases.. and maybe cultivating a Sunday morning F1 watch party on tape delay at a local bar. Like, do anything other than rent billboards for 2 weeks before a race. They also need to close some of the seating for these smaller events. Like, if you can't fill the giant amount of seats you've got on race weekend, then tarp some off with pretty banners and consolidate the fans into less sections so it feels more like an event and less like a sparely attended failure.


*I actually like Nascar and have been to about 15 races in my life. I'm just saying urban liberals may or may not want to associate with something that has a reputation of a certain uh.. baskets of deplorables fanbase.**

**I grew up a redneck child in a trailer park, so I'm passing no judgement.

Good post. Can't really disagree with much of it, except these ....

IndyCar does seem to have more U.S. fans than endurance racing and V8SC, but the problem is that those Lone Star Le Mans races and the one-off Aussie V8SC race outdrew this IndyCar race, despite temperatures in the 90s for most of those races and very good weather this past weekend. Even the stand-alone IMSA and WEC races did better after they split to separate weekends in 2017. Even though those series had bigger crowds than this IndyCar race, IMSA and WEC left COTA when their contracts were up & V8SC left after one year. If IndyCar can't keep up with those series attendance-wise at COTA, it's probably not a good omen for IndyCar in Austin, no matter what happy spin they and Epstein put on it.

Re: the soccer crap Epstein has pulled, well, he's really revealed his true character to people around the area with that mess.

Re: Tarping off sections of grandstands, he's really been doing his own version of that over the years - but rather than covering bleachers up, he's just been quietly removing them. For the first USGP in 2012, the reserved seating consisted of these grandstands:

- the Main Grandstand
- a large grandstand at Turn 1
- Turn 2
- Turn 3
- a large grandstand at Turn 4
- Turn 5
- a large grandstand at Turn 6
- a large grandstand at Turn 9
- a large grandstand on the East side of Turn 11 and two medium sized-ones on the West side of the turn
- a very large grandstand at Turn 12
- one large and one small grandstand at Turn 15

Since then, for the USGP (not in this order):

- Turn 1 stand was cut by about half
- Turn 2 stand was eliminated
- Turn 3 stand was eliminated
- Turn 4 stand was downsized
- Turn 5 stand was eliminated
- Turn 6 stand was eliminated
- Turn 9 stand was downsized
- all three Turn 11 stands were eliminated
-Turn 12 stand was cut by about half

Of those, the Turn 1 and Turn 12 stands are part of the core group of stands that remain in use for every race (Main, T1, T12, and T15)

[turn1]

Originally Posted by the Genral

StoOe, I really liked your post. Well said and spot on what I was thinking also. My added two cents...F1 and MotoGP are snooty. Epstein is snooty, COTA is most successful catering to the snooty. Twice a year Epstein was right to choose snooty. He is probably letting his track and those two main events do all the promoting for him for other events. Since he does very little to connect to the people of Austin and the rest of Texas, but rather to the snooty, he would be well advised not to miss the deadline for a shot at 20+ mil next year. He going to need it.
Also, just an observation...the main grandstands are anything but grand. They must be the smallest grandstands in F1. The entry road is too narrow, the parking too limited, the soccer stadium smaller than High School stadiums, how can someone think so big and so small at the same time?

Totally agree Epstein caters to the 1% and couldn't care less about the rest of us. Disagree about the crowd snootiness tho. Of course there is a snobby portion of the F1 crowd, but it's mostly regular Joes & Janes. The MotoGP crowd doesn't seem snobby at all to me, if maybe a little weird at times LOL

Re: the Main Grandstand, it holds only something like 9000 people so, yep, there are many H.S. football stadiums that are significantly larger. It was originally planned to be much larger, with the middle portion's full double-deck seating profile actually extending just beyond each end of the pit building. That was cut back by Epstein, apparently to help find money for things like the Amphitheater and the all-important mullet tower.

[Jdawgboy]

I really would like to see the double deck covered grandstand extend the way it was originally meant to be. While I understand that empty grandstands don't look good for televised events, they should be able to have temporary stands that can be built and taken down depending on the size of the event.

Overall I've been pretty disappointed in the lack of additional attractions. We were promised so much more when the track was being built with future phases and other attractions. Besides the soccer field (I believe years back they wanted an actual large soccer stadium.) I remember them hinting of other things that were in the works with all the land that they own. Here we are, 7 years on and not much has changed. I also distinctly remember that hundreds of trees where promised to be planted to make the surrounding area look nicer. How quickly that was swept under the rug. I just feel like it could have been much more than what it turned out to be.

[the Genral]

I posted that I was disappointed and embarrassed about the attendance at the Indy race. Well did anyone see all the empty seats at TMS's NASCAR race today? What the heck is going on? I attended the first 4 NASCAR Winston Cup races there on rather cold cloudy days and there were very few seats without butts in them and that included the seating along the back straight away which are no longer there or used. Maybe its just older fans like me don't know who most of the drivers are anymore and there's no one to root for. I'm starting to realize it isn't just the lack of fan support at COTA, its a decline that's widespread. MotoGP in a few weeks should fill the stands, but I'm curious to see if there is an attendance drop from last year. We'll know in a few weeks.

[turn1]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

I really would like to see the double deck covered grandstand extend the way it was originally meant to be. While I understand that empty grandstands don't look good for televised events, they should be able to have temporary stands that can be built and taken down depending on the size of the event.

Overall I've been pretty disappointed in the lack of additional attractions. We were promised so much more when the track was being built with future phases and other attractions. Besides the soccer field (I believe years back they wanted an actual large soccer stadium.) I remember them hinting of other things that were in the works with all the land that they own. Here we are, 7 years on and not much has changed. I also distinctly remember that hundreds of trees where promised to be planted to make the surrounding area look nicer. How quickly that was swept under the rug. I just feel like it could have been much more than what it turned out to be.

The 700 shade trees around the circuit were actually agreed to in writing as a condition put on COTA by the City Council when COTA needed their endorsement in order to be eligible for State funding. Yeah, I'm still looking for those, too.

The large soccer stadium that was rumored was because Epstein thought he had the inside track to MLS ownership. They've also hinted like you say since the beginning that lots of things were 'in the works', 'right around the corner', etc, like hotels, the water park, retail & restaurants in a Domain-like development (LOL), etc. I remember thinking that Elroy was just going to blow up, even to the point of considering buying property near the track. Man, I'm sooooooo glad I didn't go down that road.