Manitoba Highways

[thewave46]

Sadly, the optics of squeezing the feds for money fade as memory of the tragedy fades. One doesn't do it right away in such a tragedy, but shortly thereafter - throw out a 75% fed/25% province split offer for an interchange to the federal Minister of Transport. Especially when the feds are fairly spendthrift and need the PR boost.

It makes the $550m the province spends on infrastructure and transportation go that much further.

Manitoba should squeeze the feds for infrastructure money on Highway 1/100/101. Doubly so when other provinces are getting their nose in the trough for federal money. It's a smaller province, so it needs less 'grandiose transit schemes' or 'big manufacturing subsidy', but does need improvements to its highway network.

Aside: As for $800m twinning of Ontario Highway 17 - maybe if they did $800m per year for a 50 year plan. Given the pace and cost of the Highway 69 four-laning from Sudbury, ON to Parry Sound, ON ($2b estimate, started in 2005 - 19 years later there's still 70km of 157km left to go), the cost and difficulty of twinning the whole route is the big obstacle.

Northern Ontario needs better engineered / more forgiving roads (passing lanes, 2+1, removing rock cuts, better geometry) per mile. Four lanes are such overkill for much of it.

[Biff]

From a major contractor who actively does projects like this - $15-25m for bridge and ramp work - design and land acquisition extra.

The Province should have a standing contract to build 2 or 3 of these per year as a make work project alone.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

But the Province really has an issue with over doing things. St Mary's estimated cost is $135 million with all that highway work and new roads being built.

^^^This. Overbuilding. I'm all for doing good work. But overdoing it and squandering money means we get priced out of ANY work. Leaving us stuck with the current nothing: which is BRUTALLY underbuilt. Just build reasonable.

St Mary's is an absolute nightmare. Does WSP think land grows on trees? There's tentacles everywhere. A simple clover with collectors would have worked fine. Even a compact diamond. They pillaged almost 160 acres of land for that monstrosity for a relatively low flow road. Do they even think?

For perspective, Perimeter and Portage has an 80 acre clover which is still chugging along.

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Either way, in the ball park of the $10-15 million ish for a bridge out at PTH 5. Ramps are pretty cheap. $20-25 million to get it done. Construction cost.

Agree, we're getting consensus here in the $10-30m range. Centered in the $15m-25m range. Build inefficiently, higher end of that range. Streamline design, plug-n-play prints, dedicated team and suppliers = lower end of this spectrum in price and time.

People need to remember, we're talking a 2 lane bridge in the boonies. Not an 8-lane expressway in Los Angeles.

Originally Posted by Biff

From a major contractor who actively does projects like this - $15-25m for bridge and ramp work - design and land acquisition extra.

Bingo. Rural land acquisition is peanuts. But add $70 million for WSP designers no doubt. /Sarc

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

^^^This. Overbuilding. I'm all for doing good work. But overdoing it and squandering money means we get priced out of ANY work. Leaving us stuck with the current nothing: which is BRUTALLY underbuilt. Just build reasonable.

St Mary's is an absolute nightmare. Does WSP think land grows on trees? There's tentacles everywhere. A simple clover with collectors would have worked fine. Even a compact diamond. They pillaged almost 160 acres of land for that monstrosity for a relatively low flow road. Do they even think?

I don't see the issue with the design used for St Mary's. They had to shuffle eastward from the current location because the current layout is too close to the river, the angle that St Mary's currently meets perimeter is too far off 90 degrees, and there needs to be access to Maple Grove. That meant necessary land acquisition.

It's been discussed here that the bulk of the costs with the project are with the widening of the median, which means rebuilding the roadways from scratch. There was also a substantial amount of utilities that needed relocation as well.

The cost is just a reality of building an interchange in an urban setting. I'm glad they got the land they needed and also have the necessary space for when St Marys will be twinned south of the city and requires a second bridge.

Rural interchanges shouldn't come close to this cost though.

[bomberjet]

St marys is over complicated with the diverging diamond. But has the mainline reconstruction and everything associated with that. The realignment of st marys is debatable IMO.

My main comment on the north perimeter was to keep evrything on alignment and buy the properties. There is a lot less to deal with over there. St annes being at 90 degrees they bought the properties, or will I guess.

[craner]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Vehicles have trouble navigating the straight across. Now we expect them to pull a u-turn? And the associated weaving movement it requires?

On the next page in the report, it shows a truck loon. Which is basically a bulge out in the oncoming lane where the u-turn movement is so trucks can make the turn. It just seems like a terrible idea IMO.

They do say this configuration requires further design and the u-turn is probably pushed down the highway to minimize the weaving impacts.

I agree - the u-turn idea is so bush league.

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by craner

I agree - the u-turn idea is so bush league.

My idea for improving that could add a wider median, also have an elongated RCUT intersection.

[Dengler Avenue]

A wider median technically helps with vehicle queueing in there. MTO had that in mind when deciding to use a 30 m median for twinning TCH.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Biff

From a major contractor who actively does projects like this - $15-25m for bridge and ramp work - design and land acquisition extra.

The Province should have a standing contract to build 2 or 3 of these per year as a make work project alone.

I still have a hard time with this pricing.

If these simple bridges were anywhere near $15M, we aren't having this discussion. It's gonna be a bridge going over the highway - even the Gov't can see the comparative value in that.

However, that similar project from Ottawa was $25M in 2021 dollars. Pretty much 5 years and a pandemic to skew that pricing a lot higher when this project would actually move forward, not to mention the greater number of contractors in that area for more competitive pricing.

Also - these contractors have a habit of spitting out numbers to reel you in - hope you sign on the dotted line - and once the dust settles and the price balloons out - hope you still want to move forward.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by drew

However, that $25m project from Ottawa was $25M in 2021 dollars.

It was urban, on Canadian shield rock, with extensive land acquisition (multiple lots, uprooted houses, and residential house values, etc).

Manitoba TCH intersections have virtually no land acquisition (Carberry has a single party), the rest is pre-buffered. It's wide open with tons of room to work.

[Biff]

He said their price for the bridge only portion of the St Mary's interchange was $12-$13m when they bid.

That bid was in late 2021.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

It was urban, on Canadian shield rock, with extensive land acquisition (multiple lots, uprooted houses, and residential house values, etc).

Manitoba TCH intersections have virtually no land acquisition (Carberry has a single party), the rest is pre-buffered. It's wide open with tons of room to work.

What are you saying…
That interchange is in the lower part of Renfrew County, so it’s at best exurban Ottawa (and people from Ottawa may hate to consider the lower part of Renfrew County as such).
I actually live near there (32 minutes away), so I checked out the construction progress from time to time. Yes there was a little bit of rock blasting, but otherwise, contractors needed to haul rock fills to build that interchange.
The last part about expropriation was mostly false. MTO acquired the 110-m ROW for the eventual 4 lanes back in the 70s (or 80s), so additional expropriation was minimal (if any).

[craner]

Originally Posted by Biff

From a major contractor who actively does projects like this - $15-25m for bridge and ramp work - design and land acquisition extra.

The Province should have a standing contract to build 2 or 3 of these per year as a make work project alone.

Right !?
Seems like a no-brainer.

[craner]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

https://www.gov.mb.ca/mti/projects_m...ect_boards.pdf

It's Tetra Tech.

Is the schedule on page 7 of the PDF still up-to-date? i.e. will they be selecting the preferred option in early 2024 (stage 5 of 8) and submitting the final report by the end of the year ?

[WildCake]

Here's some fuel for this fire:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...tion-1.7084328

Article interviews mom of a teen killed at 1/16 in 2020, the accident that prompted the PC government to promise a roundabout at that intersection.

The article says that the 1/16 roundabout is now scrapped, citing a report by the province that says long load semis would pose a challenge to navigate the roundabout when mixed with other traffic.

Glad the province wasted study dollars and like 4 years of potential progress to be at the exact same spot. And I'm also glad that we're debating the exact same options for TCH/PTH5 rather than the proper fixes these intersections need.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Article interviews mom of a teen killed at 1/16 in 2020, the accident that prompted the PC government to promise a roundabout at that intersection.

Glad the province wasted study dollars and like 4 years of potential progress to be at the exact same spot.

Bingo. This is the highest priority TCH needed. My priority ranking of TCH intersections outside of Perimeter needing overpasses:

1 - Hwy 16 (ParClo w/ collector)
2 - Deacon's (Diamond)
3 - Carberry (Clover)
4 - Oakville (Diamond)
5 - Elie (Diamond)
6 - Virden (Diamond)
7 - Dakota Tipi/Simplot Solution so Portage Bypass can go back to 110kph+

Notably comingled:

8 - Headingly Bypass
9 - Brandon Bypass
10 - Austin/MacGregor. A temp R-CUT could MAYBE work here. Cost needs Sub $3m each.

Get this "needs" list done at a bare minimum. In this order. Then start worrying about "wants", like TCH complete grade separation.

[bodaggin]

Off topic. Who wants to see this painted on TCH left lane every ~2 miles, to behavior modify these left lane campers?

[Dengler Avenue]

Do NOT put that arrow there. Everyone will take it to mean that the left lane ends.
And left lane campers exist in Manitoba too? I mean, I visited Manitoba in 2017 and it felt much better than my experience in Southern and Eastern Ontario.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Do NOT put that arrow there. Everyone will take it to mean that the left lane ends.
And left lane campers exist in Manitoba too? I mean, I visited Manitoba in 2017 and it felt much better than my experience in Southern and Eastern Ontario.

Yes, wondered that too about arrow. Hard to condense a message. Regardless messaging chosen, I think it should be painted on the lane they're driving for maximum impact. No one looks at signs. Tickets help no one.

Yes. TCH campers are unreal in MB. Saw a guy yesterday drive 5 miles in left lane with no one else around. Came up to his first semi to pass, pulls into the right lane behind him and tailgates him for the next 4 miles.

Or they'll take 2 miles to pass. Complete your pass GTFO the way lol Behavior modification needed. Cheap solution.

[craner]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Here's some fuel for this fire:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...tion-1.7084328

Article interviews mom of a teen killed at 1/16 in 2020, the accident that prompted the PC government to promise a roundabout at that intersection.

The article says that the 1/16 roundabout is now scrapped, citing a report by the province that says long load semis would pose a challenge to navigate the roundabout when mixed with other traffic.

Glad the province wasted study dollars and like 4 years of potential progress to be at the exact same spot. And I'm also glad that we're debating the exact same options for TCH/PTH5 rather than the proper fixes these intersections need.

Wpgstvsouth94 said it best earlier in this thread:

“I swear this province will do anything, but build a proper interchange it infuriates me.”