The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Architype

Well, look how the Japanese all but decimated the American auto industry in the 70's thru to the present day, the Americans were just sluggish and their small cars were a disaster. Then the Europeans totally took over and wiped out the American luxury and performance end of the market. The Americans were only saved by government handouts and are on life support. Buy American? Not likely for me. Tesla is the only exception, but Musk isn't really American, and they are also lacking in some areas.

The American companies became addicted to the easy profits from large pickups and SUVs.

But to the point, insinuating that the Mach-E isn't any good because there are apparently a higher percentage of them sitting on used car lots compared to the Model Y is pure conjecture. It's drawing a conclusion based on one data point.

[SFUVancouver]

I would add, too, that the dealership sales model of the legacy automakers will naturally result in an accumulation of unsold inventory on dealer lots. What should be a significant concern to the legacies is the take-up of EVs by the dealerships themselves. And while the franchised dealership model may have the veneer of independent ownership due to the longstanding trend of naming the dealerships (e.g. Budd's Subaru, Pattison Toyota, etc.), there are massive ownership groups that represent a large portion of the total dealerships. If those ownership groups aren't keen on selling EVs, which requires significant investment in capital equipment and staff retraining, plus the risk of being spurned by customers who hate EVs and all they represent, the automakers are stuck with fewer sales channels. They are also generally prohibited from employing the direct-sales model due to various laws requiring a dealership middleman.

But the S-curve of EV adoption is real and the legacy automakers are in trouble. A decade of denial, heel-dragging, lobbying, and half-hearted 'electrification' efforts focused on hybrids that haven't really translated into BEV expertise, has resulted in a situation where most legacy automakers are all having to learn how to make clean-sheet first generation EV platforms, at scale, and profitably, all while the handful of early-movers like Ford (Mach-E and F150 Lightning), Volvo (Polestar), and VW (ID-series), are already starting to progress to their second generation BEV platforms. But they're all losing money on every BEV they sell and dependent on their legacy product lines to keep the companies profitable and bankroll the wildly capital-intensive transition to EVs. And then there's Tesla, which, to the legacy automakers, is in the terrifying position of producing highly profitable cars that the market wants and manufacturing them at scale in a ground-up EV manufacturing ecosystem. Its high margins have let it lower prices and drive down sector-wide ASPs, which puts the legacy manufacturers in a pricing dilemma of whether to try and match or undercut Tesla for comparable products. It makes their path to profitability that much more challenging.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The American companies became addicted to the easy profits from large pickups and SUVs.

But to the point, insinuating that the Mach-E isn't any good because there are apparently a higher percentage of them sitting on used car lots compared to the Model Y is pure conjecture. It's drawing a conclusion based on one data point.

Here's some more data points, with MME taking a sales dip and losing market share. It'll be interesting to see how Q2 plays out, since the -20% Q1 YOY drop was apparently due to some downtime at the plant to increase production. It'll also be interesting to see how news of the Bolt being discontinued affects things. Will there be a rush to purchase them or will sales tank and people look to buy other EVs (ie Tesla now that it's more affordable)?



https://fordauthority.com/2023/04/fo...arter-2023-q1/

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by travis3000

Ford has a problem on its hands with the Mustang Mach-E.

Ford sold ~40k NEW units in the US in 2022. There are ~1,830 used Mach-E's for sale in the US as of today.

Tesla Model Y sold 231k in the same period. There are ~1,568 used Model Y's in the US sitting in dealer lots. There's another ~200 or so on Tesla's own lots using Tesla's inventory search tool on their site.

About 4.5% of Ford's 2022 Mach-E sales are sitting in used dealer lots. For Tesla, it's about 0.7%. In other words, there are about 6.5x more Mach-Es sitting on used dealer lots vs the Model Y when adjusting for on hand inventory and volumes from each automaker.

Originally Posted by theman23

Uh, whyis that a problem?

Originally Posted by Architype

He's indirectly saying Ford isn't as good. Maybe it's true. Meanwhile Korean and Chinese EVs also seem to have the edge. Is there anything wrong with this picture? The big legacy auto makers, even some European ones, are slow to react and not innovative enough.

Originally Posted by homebucket

Here's some more data points, with MME taking a sales dip and losing market share. It'll be interesting to see how Q2 plays out, since the -20% Q1 YOY drop was apparently due to some downtime at the plant to increase production. It'll also be interesting to see how news of the Bolt being discontinued affects things. Will there be a rush to purchase them or will sales tank and people look to buy other EVs (ie Tesla now that it's more affordable)?

Yeah sure, but my comments were related to the above quotes (in italics). Are the above comments indicators that 'Ford isn't good'? To me, it sounded like conjecture.

It reminded me of the first F-150 Lightning EV I saw in a parking lot in the fall - it was making this awful squealing noise when it was being moved into a parking spot. By the logic above, I should have concluded that 'Ford EVs are junk', but I don't know the reason for the noise, nor anything regarding what led up to the noise. Therefore I can't conclude anything, other than it was making a bad noise at that time. Perhaps I've just heard too many 'experts' over the years giving opinions based on rough or non-factual information, or jumping to conclusions. This was before it became the norm to take such stances on the internet. Then there's the 'Tesla religion', which also seems a little silly, but I do get being happy with a product and wanting to tell people about it... it does get taken a little far sometimes, IMHO.

I haven't followed the market recently, but aren't companies selling every EV they can make at this point? If this is still happening, then a reduction in production would be more than enough explanation for a reduction in sales. Cars sitting on used car lots could be for a number of reasons, like short term leases, dealers still trying to take advantage of price gouging due to supply/demand, etc. Or they could be terrible vehicles (what do you say, Ackajack?) that people couldn't wait to unload so they could get into a Tesla. Maybe it was traditional IC buyers who tried an EV and decided they liked ICs better?

The point is that none of the info presented proves anything, really.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It reminded me of the first F-150 Lightning EV I saw in a parking lot in the fall - it was making this awful squealing noise when it was being moved into a parking spot. By the logic above, I should have concluded that 'Ford EVs are junk', but I don't know the reason for the noise, nor anything regarding what led up to the noise.

They are junk though. Production was stopped due to serious issues with their batteries leading them to catch fire while parked.

Why on earth would anyone buy a first generation EV from any legacy automaker? So many of them have had battery issues and recalls, advising owners to park outdoors only and 50 feet away from other cars. These are actual facts, not opinions.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

No it's on you to prove your claim. Your first example was totally bogus so I'm skeptical your feeling is remotely accurate.

As a fellow Vancouver forum dweller, my perception has been it's pretty accurate.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Yeah sure, but my comments were related to the above quotes (in italics). Are the above comments indicators that 'Ford isn't good'? To me, it sounded like conjecture.

It reminded me of the first F-150 Lightning EV I saw in a parking lot in the fall - it was making this awful squealing noise when it was being moved into a parking spot. By the logic above, I should have concluded that 'Ford EVs are junk', but I don't know the reason for the noise, nor anything regarding what led up to the noise. Therefore I can't conclude anything, other than it was making a bad noise at that time. Perhaps I've just heard too many 'experts' over the years giving opinions based on rough or non-factual information, or jumping to conclusions. This was before it became the norm to take such stances on the internet. Then there's the 'Tesla religion', which also seems a little silly, but I do get being happy with a product and wanting to tell people about it... it does get taken a little far sometimes, IMHO.

I haven't followed the market recently, but aren't companies selling every EV they can make at this point? If this is still happening, then a reduction in production would be more than enough explanation for a reduction in sales. Cars sitting on used car lots could be for a number of reasons, like short term leases, dealers still trying to take advantage of price gouging due to supply/demand, etc. Or they could be terrible vehicles (what do you say, Ackajack?) that people couldn't wait to unload so they could get into a Tesla. Maybe it was traditional IC buyers who tried an EV and decided they liked ICs better?

The point is that none of the info presented proves anything, really.

Exactly. It could be people flipping them for profit, for example.

I’ve seen several cases of people doing exactly that since the beginning of the pandemic.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by homebucket

They are junk though. Production was stopped due to serious issues with their batteries leading them to catch fire while parked.

Why on earth would anyone buy a first generation EV from any legacy automaker? So many of them have had battery issues and recalls, advising owners to park outdoors only and 50 feet away from other cars. These are actual facts, not opinions.

Totally missed the point, but alright. They are 'junk' because they have a documented battery issue (that will be remedied... but whatever). My point was that had I proclaimed them 'junk' on some random internet forum (like SSP, for example) because I heard one example making a noise, then it would be the aforementioned conjecture.

FWIW, EV fires are not that uncommon, but that doesn't mean EVs are 'junk'. There will be problems that will be worked out, and there will likely remain problems that will always be problems, but the numbers will be insignificant enough that we will accept them as being the 'nature of the beast'.

Now, I must drive by my local car lots to see what is sitting there at that moment in time to determine what vehicles are junk and which ones are great (i.e. the vehicle brands that aren't sitting on the lot at the moment). If you'll excuse me...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. It could be people flipping them for profit, for example.

I’ve seen several cases of people doing exactly that since the beginning of the pandemic.

Yup. There are so many reasons that it is difficult to draw conclusions without taking a deep dive into the data. Even then the data only tells part of the story... And then two months later it may have completely changed again.

But... on the internet, none of that matters.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

FWIW, EV fires are not that uncommon, but that doesn't mean EVs are 'junk'. There will be problems that will be worked out, and there will likely remain problems that will always be problems, but the numbers will be insignificant enough that we will accept them as being the 'nature of the beast'.

Last time I checked, the batteries are the primary differentiator between an EV and an ICE car. If the fuel systems on ICE cars were malfunctioning and leading to fires while parked, I'd say it's pretty fair to call them junk too.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Last time I checked, the batteries are the primary differentiator between an EV and an ICE car. If the fuel systems on ICE cars were malfunctioning and leading to fires while parked, I'd say it's pretty fair to call them junk too.

ICE cars catch on fire all the time, they're just not reported on because people are used to it and it's not as sensational as a new scary technology catching on fire.

It's like how car accidents are the leading cause of child mortality in the US, but no one really cares because it's something Americans just accept for some reason. You get way more viewership talking about school shootings.

Car fires: Thousands occur each year in Canada. How to stay safe

Heroic efforts by five strangers, who acted in the nick of time, saved the life of a Toronto man, pulling him out of a burning car on an Ontario highway earlier this month.

The driver suffered a seizure, causing him to crash his vehicle off the Queen Elizabeth Highway, but seconds before the car was engulfed in flames, he was dragged out to safety.

With more people on the road as summer travel picks up amid heat warnings, experts say Canadians can take steps to stay safe.

Transport Canada estimates there are approximately 10,000 vehicle fires across the country annually because of arson, improper servicing or repairs, collisions and defects.

On average, 93 vehicle fires per year are reported that are alleged to relate to a safety defect, the agency told Global News in an email.

Collisions are the most common cause of vehicle fires, followed by manufacturing defects, arson and incorrect vehicle modifications, said Keith Fowler, a certified vehicle fire investigator in Edmonton.

“In the summertime, a lot of them are caused by overloading the vehicle … which causes the vehicle to overheat in transmission and related fires,” he told Global News.

The higher the temperature, the greater the chance of a vehicle failure starting a fire, Fowler said.

While winter presents its own risks with block heaters and collisions caused by icy, slippery roads, the summer heat causes “additional challenges” for drivers, said Rob de Pruis, national director of consumer and industry relations for the Insurance Bureau of Canada.

“Different seasons pose different circumstances,” he said.

A recent analysis by AutoinsuranceEZ found that hybrid cars in the United States were most likely to catch fire per 100,000 sales, followed by gasoline vehicles. Electric vehicles ranked third, with only 25 fires per 100,000 electric vehicle sales reported.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9024455/v...es-prevention/

[homebucket]

^ Those are usually with running cars though, no? I don't recall any recent history where an ICE car was recalled for starting fires while parked, or where people were advised to park outside only and away from other cars.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Last time I checked, the batteries are the primary differentiator between an EV and an ICE car. If the fuel systems on ICE cars were malfunctioning and leading to fires while parked, I'd say it's pretty fair to call them junk too.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-e...est-car-fires/

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-e...est-car-fires/

Any recent history where an ICE car was recalled for starting fires while parked, or where people were advised to park outside only and away from other cars?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Any recent history where an ICE car was recalled for starting fires while parked, or where people were advised to park outside only and away from other cars?

From a few days ago, cue hat eating?

570,000 Hyundai, Kia Models Recalled over Fire Risk While Parked
Affected models include the 2019–2023 Santa Fe, 2022–2023 Santa Cruz, and 2022–2023 Kia Carnival

Hyundai and Kia issued a warning for owners of over 570,000 vehicles across multiple models and years to park away from structures, due to a fire risk. Hyundai Santa Fe models from 2019–2023 are at risk, as are 2022–2023 Hyundai Santa Cruz and Kia Carnival models.

The fire risk stems from a defect with tow-hitch harnesses installed either as original equipment or purchased as a dealer accessory. The potential fire risk occurs through water accumulation on the tow hitch harness circuit board, which may cause an electrical short, and ultimately a fire. Hyundai reports a total of 567,912 affected vehicles combined across models, though the estimated percentage of vehicles with the defect is only one percent. NHTSA documents show Kia reporting 3555 vehicles potentially involved, also estimating a one percent defect rate.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...ltiple-models/

I fully expect you to explain this away as nothing to do with the ICE drivetrain, but it has nothing to do with an EV drivetrain either.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Any recent history where an ICE car was recalled for starting fires while parked, or where people were advised to park outside only and away from other cars?

Yes, lol.

But that's the main problem with EV criticism that I see. A very specific issue is nitpicked and proven to be worse than ICE vehicles, ergo all EVs are crap and we shouldn't bother.

Objectively EVs are better across a wide spectrum of features and benefits, albeit there are certain features (refueling of course) that aren't on par with ICE from a time perspective.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Objectively EVs are better across a wide spectrum of features and benefits, albeit there are certain features (refueling of course) that aren't on par with ICE from a time perspective.

As an EV driver myself with the luxury of being able to charge at home, the time benefit is easily in favour of EVs if you have home charging, no question about it. I'm also able to charge at work too, which is a cherry on top.

For road trips, the biggest hangup has been waiting for a spot, not waiting for charging. If you're stopping on a long trip, people are usually out stretching their legs, getting snacks, or taking a washroom break anyway so 15 - 20 minutes to charge isn't noticeable.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by chowhou

From a few days ago, cue hat eating?



https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...ltiple-models/

I fully expect you to explain this away as nothing to do with the ICE drivetrain, but it has nothing to do with an EV drivetrain either.

Yikes. That's pretty bad. But you are right, that has nothing to with the ICE powertrain.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Yikes. That's pretty bad. But you are right, that has nothing to with the ICE powertrain.

And nothing to do with an EV drivetrain. Cars just catch on fire sometimes and the rate is higher for non EV cars.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yes, lol.

But that's the main problem with EV criticism that I see. A very specific issue is nitpicked and proven to be worse than ICE vehicles, ergo all EVs are crap and we shouldn't bother.

Objectively EVs are better across a wide spectrum of features and benefits, albeit there are certain features (refueling of course) that aren't on par with ICE from a time perspective.

I wouldn't say all EVs are crap. I think what we are seeing though is that a lot of the legacy automakers are struggling to put out good, reliable EVs. Especially when we have another automaker (Tesla) that has put out objectively better EVs at much higher volumes. I don't recall Tesla ever having to put out a warning to park vehicles outside and away from other cars.