Manitoba Highways

[plrh]

Wasn't the St. Mary's Overpass about $100M? And that was with a lot of new roads and embankments. Maybe they meant $100M in 2043 dollars.

[drew]

^ the problem here is that we are a bunch of dudes posting in a message board throwing numbers around from various years, and various areas around the country.

They only one with the real number is the consultant the province hires to actually provide a Class B or better cost estimate.

Having said all that - I am willing to bet the true number for a "simple bridge" is significantly higher than $25M. And orders of magnitude higher than a "RCUT" or roundabout. Otherwise, we would not be having this discussion.

[VANRIDERFAN]

^^
You're the engineer and I am not.

But I just cannot fathom a 100 million for a structured overpass in Rural Manitoba. The Daly Bridge that crosses the CPR yards in Brandon was costed at 65 million (which likely came in at 75 million?) and I'd argue it was a damn site more complicated than any graded intersection that should have been erected along the entire route of the TCH over the last 50 bloody years.

[drew]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

^^
But I just cannot fathom a 100 million for a structured overpass in Rural Manitoba.

Agreed - but as I posted previously:

Not that it should add up to $100M - but certainly double that 25M price tag of the 2021 Ottawa project wouldn't be outrageous IMO. So in my mind, $50M is the best case scenario for a simple bridge and related road works here.

[Dengler Avenue]

I wonder whether the elephant in the room will be reconstruction of TCH to allow for proper drainage.
In flat terrain like this, the roadways along with the associated ditches need to have a slight longitudinal grade (i.e. 0.5% in Ontario) to facilitate drainage. I don’t know if that was done when MTI twinned this part of TCH. For something like that, there’s probably no way around looking up the province’s drainage map.

[bodaggin]

Here's Pre-Cast Bridge Girder cost for MB Hwy 256 over Pipestone in 2018.

Total $230k to $370k for all girders. Call it $500k-600k in current dollars.

That's a 34 meter free-span bridge of similar road type. Carberry would be ~50 meter span with 1 or multi supports. So comparable.

Let's double it and call it $1m for girders.

Imagineer Drew: In Carberry sand. Would you prefer deep friction piles or a raft footing for center supports? How thick of reinforced raft? 3 feet? 5 feet? 8 feet?

[drew]

^ all those foundation questions are determined once a site specific geotechnical report is finished

[BlackDog204]

This is what WSP came out with.

[Carboy15]

On Manitoba's Highways, I counted approximately 45 Intersections on the Trans Canada Highway Intersecting with Highways (at grade intersections). We may total to around 50-60 additional interchanges as we may need some intersecting with minor roads. If a diamond interchange would cost 100M, I would think if we put aside 800M a year, which could pay for 8 small interchanges a year, say it takes two years to build on the rural TCH, it could take approximately 16 years for the TCH in rural MB (excluding Winnipeg) to have a full freeway standard. It would probably take more than that because it may not only be diamond interchanges being built, but we'd less likely see system Interchanges in Manitoba. For system interchanges, I would more likely see that around Winnipeg and on the Perimeter.

[Carboy15]

I am aware manitoba puts over a billion into one years budget, but I believe the major highways should be top priority in Manitoba

[Carboy15]

I'm sure if Ontario put 800M into Hwy 17, they could have it fully twinned within 25 years

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

I'm sure if Ontario put 800M into Hwy 17, they could have it fully twinned within 25 years

Sadly I don’t think that Northern Ontario necessarily receives that much funding for its roads. (The funding programs are separate for Northern Ontario and for Southern Ontario.)

[Carboy15]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Sadly I don’t think that Northern Ontario necessarily receives that much funding for its roads. (The funding programs are separate for Northern Ontario and for Southern Ontario.)

It is sad. Unfortunately, Southern Ontario wants to build 413, in which there are enough roads in Southern Ontario. Northern Ontario needs the roads, at least better ones.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Carboy15

It is sad. Unfortunately, Southern Ontario wants to build 413, in which there are enough roads in Southern Ontario. Northern Ontario needs the roads, at least better ones.

Southern Ontario is a lot more congested, though. I don’t know if Winnipeg gets to that level of congestion.
The needs in the south vs in the north are very different.

Ps: I’m looking forward to the functional plan for TCH twinning around Falcon Lake. I think that narrow median with jersey barrier is unnecessary though. Medians as wide as 30 m permit profiling both roadways independently, which may be cheaper (or at the very least easier to design). That’s why MTO uses wide medians even in Canadian Shield.

[bomberjet]

Those girder numbers seem ultra low for a highway bridge.

Like yes us internet dudes are throwing numbers around. But the Province really has an issue with over doing things. St Mary's estimated cost is $135 million with all that highway work and new roads being built. What did the actual structure cost there. Probably a percentage, 10%-15% of that overall cost.

Where can we find that info in any detail? Probably no where, especially the project being a design-build.

We just keep going in circles here and have some disagreement. I'd agree with general sentiment in here that interchanges need to be prioritized, not based on tragic news but on actual data. But spending a bunch of money on PTH 5, again based on the tragic news, seems unfounded IMO. The same conditions exist allover the highway network.

[harls]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

But spending a bunch of money on PTH 5, again based on the tragic news, seems unfounded IMO. The same conditions exist allover the highway network.

My brother was t-boned at 13 and the TCH years ago by some senior that thought he had enough time to cross the median. Luckily no one died.

[bomberjet]

Unfortunately, as we all know, that is the state of non-grade separated highways. Is PTH 5 any worse than the likely hundreds of other non-controlled crossings? I don't know. there's 5 or 6 major intersections on TCH west of Winnipeg that should be priority, PTH 5 being one of them.

[bomberjet]

This is in 2015 dollars, with some inflation accounted for. Marion Widening study with the interchange and rail underpass at Archibald. $22 million for both bridge structures. Maybe $30 million for both. The rail overpass being heavier so taking a larger percentage of that cost. Either way, in the ball park of the $10-15 million ish for a bridge out at PTH 5. Ramps are pretty cheap. $20-25 million to get it done. Construction cost.

Page 14 of the below.
https://legacy.winnipeg.ca/publicwor...ingMinutes.pdf

Anyone find ino say on the Roblin and PTH 100 reconstruction from a few years back?

[plrh]

I noticed the Bishop Grandin/Kenaston overpass was $14.5M in 2013. That's for the general contract, no engineering. I don't think it was a design-build.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Anyone find ino say on the Roblin and PTH 100 reconstruction from a few years back?

The Roblin and Perimeter interchange was awarded in 2015 at a cost of $11,322,909. That doesn't include any land acquisition or civil works to build the foundation and ramp approaches. It was basically a widened span with new girders and deck.

I still stand by my estimate of $25-30M in todays dollars for an I-29 style diamond.