CHICAGO | General Discussions

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by BrinChi

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As a white guy who lived in Garfield Park for 9 years and now Bronzeville for the last 2.5 years, it's just laughable to me when I hear people justify not going to certain parts of the city (or paying twice as much for housing to live in certain neighborhoods) because of the crime stats. I'm privileged and unlikely to be involved in a random act of crime, but the biggest frustration of my neighborhood is when litter gets out of control -- seriously that is the worst part of living in the less affluent parts of the city imo. (Recognizing that even the wealthy parts of a dense city often get badly littered, but it's usually taken care of quicker.) That's been my focus of neighborhood initiatives because most places stop looking scary when the trash is cleaned up and the grass/foliage is trimmed... even if the area has some empty lots with old foundations and crumbling sidewalks. If the city wants the south and west sides to continue attracting investment and filling in, it's essential to keep them clean. It should be a low-cost, high-return investment. This *especially* includes the neighborhood parks.

Yeah appearances go a long way, but being saddled with poverty has a way of exhausting people and reducing the mental space for people to care or think about these things.

I took it upon myself to landscape my parkway this year. It was a patch of weedy grass. Dug it all up, put in natives, stepping stones, bunch of trees. You wouldn't believe the amount of people in my neighborhood who come up to me to thank me for what I'm doing, or to ask about a particular plant. I was worried about it getting trampled given the condition of other aspects of the neighborhood, but everyone respects it.

One older woman on the block came up to me one day and just kept going on and on about how she loves nature and how were blessed because "god loves those who love nature." Her son is a Latin king on house arrest with an ankle bracelet (I know this because I have to pass him every day in the alley). I imagine her life is incredibly overwhelming and stressful. But she went out later that week and planted a tiny little tree in her patch or parkway. Later she put in some flowers. Honestly, the tree probably won't survive the winter but that's not the point. She saw someone else value a place that's always been neglected, and it gave her a sort of permission to see it differently. At least that's what I hope. But the fact she went out and bought a little six inch tree and put it in her patch of dirt was a touching gesture. It can be suffocating living in some of these areas, and something as simple as trees and flowers can begin to change perceptions

I'm also not implying I'm some savior, I just have more time and resources to dedicate to this kind of thing compared to my average neighbor. All of us can only control the things that we actually can control, and just have to try to lead by example. I pick up the trash because I have the time to do so and I see it. If other people don't, that's also understandable because everyone is dealing with different circumstances and burdens.

[The Lurker]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Yeah appearances go a long way, but being saddled with poverty has a way of exhausting people and reducing the mental space for people to care or think about these things.

I disagree. Filth is not a byproduct of poverty. Wealthy neighborhoods aren't immaculate because rich people with lots of time on their hands pick up trash and plant trees. Sure that helps but its mostly because people are hired to landscape and maintain the grounds. Chicago has one of the most beautiful downtowns in the world partly because the city spends tons of money maintaining planters on all the sidewalks. Why is no money spent to maintain appearances in the poor neighborhoods which desperately need the investment and could benefit from the jobs? If you ask me its a city leadership problem.

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by The Lurker

I disagree. Filth is not a byproduct of poverty. Wealthy neighborhoods aren't immaculate because rich people with lots of time on their hands pick up trash and plant trees. Sure that helps but its mostly because people are hired to landscape and maintain the grounds. Chicago has one of the most beautiful downtowns in the world partly because the city spends tons of money maintaining planters on all the sidewalks. Why is no money spent to maintain appearances in the poor neighborhoods which desperately need the investment and could benefit from the jobs? If you ask me its a city leadership problem.

I mean, there is genuinely more littering and private property neglect (even when money isn’t a factor) on the South Side.

I’ve lived in a corner lot near West Town and now live in a corner lot in South Chicago. And in South Chicago, I have to pick up bottles and other litter every single day from my property.

The North side has priced out most people who deliberately litter or vandalize a block except for maybe say Wrigleyville, but it is a real issue on the South side. Service levels as far as street sweeping and road repair seem to be the same as West Town, to be quite honest.

I think it’s unfair to compare a neighborhood to the Loop considering the Loop is everybody’s first impression of Chicago and needs to be immaculate for economic growth. Also a lot of North side business strips are private money from special assessments and neighborhood chamber of commerce initiatives.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by Skyguy_7

It pains me to think of the 80 year old south/west-side residents who must live amongst filth, while, not to mention, sheltering from gunfire each summer evening, because most of the youth in these communities are such terrible citizens.

In my early 20s, I was poor, with a negative bank account balance, but would lug my empty Doritos bag over to a nearby trash can every time, because it was simply the right thing to do.

Can you provide a reference for your assertion that "most of the youth in these communities are such terrible citizens"? That seems like a stretch and part of the existing (incorrect) stereotype this entire thread has been about.

For the record, I see people on the North Side throwing trash out of their car windows all the time. You were a hero in your 20s, but you've hardly proven anything with your broad assumptions about others and simple anecdotes about yourself.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrinChi

BOOM. Well said. And I love your personal mission. I also certainly hope that if TUP's assumption is true, where you don't live anywhere near the place you're investing in, that you reconsider the location of your own home very soon.

As a white guy who lived in Garfield Park for 9 years and now Bronzeville for the last 2.5 years, it's just laughable to me when I hear people justify not going to certain parts of the city (or paying twice as much for housing to live in certain neighborhoods) because of the crime stats. I'm privileged and unlikely to be involved in a random act of crime, but the biggest frustration of my neighborhood is when litter gets out of control -- seriously that is the worst part of living in the less affluent parts of the city imo. (Recognizing that even the wealthy parts of a dense city often get badly littered, but it's usually taken care of quicker.) That's been my focus of neighborhood initiatives because most places stop looking scary when the trash is cleaned up and the grass/foliage is trimmed... even if the area has some empty lots with old foundations and crumbling sidewalks. If the city wants the south and west sides to continue attracting investment and filling in, it's essential to keep them clean. It should be a low-cost, high-return investment. This *especially* includes the neighborhood parks.

Quoted for absolute truth. Keeping an area, even a relatively run-down one, clean and somewhat tidy is absolutely essential in order to attract some economic investment to start a revitalization. It's already happening in Bronzeville and some other areas, but it needs to continue.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Via Chicago]

Yeah downtown is a poor comparison. Also, you can still make the comparison with more middle class areas as opposed to wealthy....go to a middle class area on the south side and you could cut yourself with how razor sharp the lawns and bushes are. Its not professionals, it's just people who have a little more time and money to dedicate to that. Also, some blame has to go to landlords as well given the high degree of rentals in some areas. Absolutely no effort to go above the bare minimum in terms of landscaping (compare that with the north side which have private gardens and lush trees, even in rentals)...and you can't tell me all these out of neighborhood investors can't afford it.

That said, the city does have control over more commerical streets/areas. Its an embarrassment for example modern day Ogden through Lawndale looks the way it does, and thats absolutely an instance where the city has control to beautify, or simply fix busted sidewalks and plant some shade. Given how many people drive that strip, it can immediately form perceptions about the community with the broader public, and the community has literally no control over it. Its completely shameful, and there are plenty of other examples. You'd never see a stretch of road like that on the north side.

[Tcmetro]

It's absolutely a government issue. There's barely any public trash cans in the neighborhoods. In Minneapolis there's garbage cans on street corners all over the city. From what I've heard, the city doesn't want the nice metal recepticles stolen, but I don't get how having a less nice looking concrete can is worse than having trash all over.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by Skyguy_7

^ Your assertion can be quickly dismantled by simply looking at the Japanese, who have essentially zero public trash cans, yet there's not a discarded gum wrapper to be found.

It's a people problem here.

The World Economic Forum thinks it is in part due to the Government of Japan's policies on recycling and waste in the 90s. They also disagree about "zero public trash cans".

There are often rubbish bins near vending machines and it’s not unusual to hand your packaging back to the street-food seller.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by moorhosj1

The World Economic Forum thinks it is in part due to the Government of Japan's policies on recycling and waste in the 90s. They also disagree about "zero public trash cans".

The U.S. and Japan are different. But having spent time in Japan, I can guarantee you that you can walk around for a month and never see someone drop some garbage on the street. I've been in AirBnB's in Japan where the guide had about three pages on how to deal with trash. It just isn't done because of the way they are socialized. This is simply inarguable. Whether it's good or not can be debated, but Japanese culture seems broadly healthy to me.

In Germany, I've seen some quite poor rural communities that are immaculate. I've asked friends about it and there's simply a high level of community expectation and social pressure around how you maintain your home, regardless of your circumstance.

In the U.S. a lot of things contribute to how communities deal with trash and similar matters and some of it has to do with how well members of the community are socialized. Part of the reason people may be poorly socialized has to do with systemic problems in the past and we should invest extra in education, community initiatives, policing and health programs so that in the future all citizens can be productive, happy and contribute.

And of course, the city should invest in public garbage cans. We're never going to be Japan and we should deal with problems pragmatically. Wishing we had a 1400 year old, homogenous honor culture probably isn't desirable and certainly isn't realistic.

But any individual who opens their window and throws a bottle out or drops their McDonald's bag at their feet and walks away has disgraced themselves and I don't want to be near them. I'd cut off a toe before I did something that anti-social. It's like smoking on the L or parking in a bike lane or bus stop. Or removing parts on your truck so it spews smoke.

[Steely Dan]

^ yep.

it's BOTH a culture and a civic issue.

but after 2+ decades, i'm all too aware of the fact that looking for nuanced thinking on the internet is usually a fool's errand.

[Via Chicago]

Japan is also a highly conservative society with a lot of repression under the placid seeming surface, at the expense of the notion of the individual. Not really a fair comparison to a highly individualistic country like the US which barely has anything resembling a functioning social contract. It all comes down to wealth and expressions of such, as opposed to any notion of greater good

Also, let's face facts. Our planet is drowning in non biodegradable garbage. If it's not on a suburban lawn, then it's floating in the ocean or being shipped to a poor village in India or china to be dumped (aka modern day recycling). Per usual, were putting the onus on end consumers to solve problems being ultimately caused by massive global profit driven corporations that have levels of wealth larger than small countries

[Tcmetro]

Your take is so bad. There's a lack of public garbage cans and instead of supporting adding those you throw your hands up and say it's "a people problem". I can guarantee that if Minneapolis decided to remove the cans from the right of way, there would be a litter problem.

Guess what? There's a bunch of people in "bad neighborhoods" who care about their property and don't litter. There's a bunch of people in "good neighborhoods" that don't care and leave their garbage everywhere. It's a little more nuanced than "those people don't mind living in their trash".

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by Tcmetro

Your take is so bad. There's a lack of public garbage cans and instead of supporting adding those you throw your hands up and say it's "a people problem". I can guarantee that if Minneapolis decided to remove the cans from the right of way, there would be a litter problem.

Guess what? There's a bunch of people in "bad neighborhoods" who care about their property and don't litter. There's a bunch of people in "good neighborhoods" that don't care and leave their garbage everywhere. It's a little more nuanced than "those people don't mind living in their trash".

Yeah…..a true garbage take.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by Skyguy_7

People don't litter because "systemic racism" or corporate greed. It's because they're lazy and have no consideration for others.

This is where you give away your true motivations. By mis-characterizing the position of anyone who disagrees, you neatly avoid addressing any of their points (or even acknowledging your own incorrect points, like trash cans in Japan).

Is it safe to say you have no data to back up your initial claim that "most youth in these communities are terrible citizens"? I assume you would have provided it if you did.

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by Skyguy_7

People don't litter because "systemic racism" or corporate greed. It's because they're lazy and have no consideration for others.

lets just create a product at incredibly cheap rates that never breaks down in 1000 years, has no market to be recycled, and produce hundreds of billions of replicas of it every year with no consequences. what could go wrong, stock price goes up! oh, whats that, things went wrong? hey i know the solution, lets blame the urban poor! probably some defect they were born with. whens happy hour?

[BrinChi]

So much good stuff from this discussion. Agreed it's both a cultural and a civic issue. We can influence the culture by fighting it at the civic level and leading by example. Someone asked what should the city do? send every employee out to pick up trash every day just to do it again the next day? YES. That's exactly what they should do. And the cost of paying $15/hour to 1000 underemployed citizens on a daily basis would be so miniscule compared to the benefits. I'd gladly pay higher property taxes for THAT service. And I would bet $10k that, when coupled with more trash cans, the cost would plateau or go down within a couple years as clean streets, sidewalks, and property is normalized across the city.

[the urban politician]

^ Nonsense.

I'm pretty sure that explorers and settlers were just more risk-averse than the little sheep who stuck it out in their little oppressive communities where they scurried around scared of their local church leaders' and town councils' wrath.

I think settlers were awesome.

[the urban politician]

Is anybody attending this little fiesta on State St (closed to traffic)?

This is legit awesome. Good music, really cool techno DJ near me, and of course there is alcohol.

Best thing I’ve seen downtown since Looptopia!

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Is anybody attending this little fiesta on State St (closed to traffic)?

This is legit awesome. Good music, really cool techno DJ near me, and of course there is alcohol.

Best thing I’ve seen downtown since Looptopia!

Sounds much better than the, very over-crowded, Tacos and Tamales Fest in Pilsen that we took the kids to over the weekend. Finding that any outdoor event in the city is drawing huge crowds.

[left of center]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Best thing I’ve seen downtown since Looptopia!

Wow, that's a blast from the past. I remember attending Looptopia when I was a UIC student. I really enjoyed it. It a shame the city did not continue it.