Manitoba Highways

[Dengler Avenue]

Why so expensive? Soil condition? Oligopoly in the construction sector?

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by Biff

About 10 years ago or so I had this discussion with some of the top people at MIT. They said that in a rural area, without the need for any additional infrastructure (sewer, cable line, gas line) movements which is most of Hwy 1, a basic I29 style diamond interchange would cost between $15-$20m. Any additional road works is on top of that. Someone can do the cost increase due to inflation from 2010 to 2024 but I would imagine that a basic diamond now would be approx $25-30m.

I'll ask around to see if I can get an update.

Ya that makes sense. It includes new roadways and such. To add the bridge and ramps at PTH 5 for example shouldn't be more than $20 million for everything. If they want to rebuild the mainlines, widen median, etc, it will inflate that number greatly.

This is the point where they are going to spend $12 million for the RCUT or whatever, build the interchange. Value for money.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Biff

About 10 years a basic I29 style diamond interchange would cost between $15-$20m. I would imagine that a basic diamond now would be approx $25-30m.

I'll ask around to see if I can get an update.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Why so expensive? Soil condition? Oligopoly in the construction sector?

Ya current $25m+ seems way high. The Hwy 59 @ Perimeter project was $200m. This included 8 bridges (1-2 lanes wide), and 2 bridges (3-4 lanes wide).

Total 10 bridges, practically triple stack, curved bridges, tons of land work, and highly congested/restricted construction areas to work around. Expensive (but incredibly well done. Bravo.)

That's a per bridge cost of $10m in 2015-2019. To @bomberjet's point in another forum.

I can't see a 2-lane rural overpass be more than $20m in the worst case scenario. Prudently, $15m.

I'll fire off pricing emails to Nelson River and Sigfusson and see if they respond. Doubtful, we'll see.

Regardless, spend the $14-20m now for a proper fix. Vs spending $12m now for a crap fix, only to delete it and spend another $25m in the future, total cost $40m. Common sense.

[bodaggin]

Carberry plot got thicker. Today's Brandon Sun quoting MB Gov estimating Carberry overpass at $100m. I repeat $100m.

There is no, way, in HELL, a rural 2 lane bridge costs $100m. Nowhere near.

Either it's a misquote (I didn't hear this mentioned at presser). Or something nefarious is going on here.

For perspective, 300 Main St. the tallest building in MB, in the most congested part of Winnipeg, cost $165m to build. WTAF is going on here.

Article Link: https://www.brandonsun.com/local/202...-mixed-reviews

[Dengler Avenue]

$100 million? That’s the price tag for twinning 6 KM of TCH from Manitoba - Ontario border easterly.
Is Manitoba’s construction industry controlled by mafia or something? I thought that only Quebec would have that problem.

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by bodaggin

Carberry plot got thicker. Today's Brandon Sun quoting MB Gov estimating Carberry overpass at $100m. I repeat $100m.

There is no, way, in HELL, a rural 2 lane bridge costs $100m. Nowhere near.

Either it's a misquote (I didn't hear this mentioned at presser). Or something nefarious is going on here.

For perspective, 300 Main St. the tallest building in MB, in the most congested part of Winnipeg, cost $165m to build. WTAF is going on here.

Article Link: https://www.brandonsun.com/local/202...-mixed-reviews

If I didn't know better, I would swear that there is some sort of government conspiracy to prevent appropriate road infrastructure from being built in this province (which includes both the NDP and the Tories), and that articles like these are out to poison the general public's minds through scare tactics into thinking that structures like diamond interchanges can't be done, or at least completed at reasonable prices. Ever.

[Dengler Avenue]

Even $30 million is a bit high for a diamond interchange.
An investigation is warranted either way.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

If I didn't know better, I would swear that there is some sort of government conspiracy to prevent appropriate road infrastructure from being built in this province (which includes both the NDP and the Tories), and that articles like these are out to poison the general public's minds through scare tactics into thinking that structures like diamond interchanges can't be done, or at least completed at reasonable prices. Ever.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Even $30 million is a bit high for a diamond interchange.
An investigation is warranted either way.

100% agree. If this isn't a misquote, something isn't right.

I've reached out to the Brandon Sun journalist to confirm source of this $100m number (I couldn't find it in the 179pg Carberry document or the presser video).

I've also emailed Nelson River and Sigfusson to see if they'd toss a ballpark cost. Don't get hopes up regarding response. May shed light on the "construction mafia" theory.

[Dengler Avenue]

Just don’t get assassinated.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Highway 17 Calibogie Interchange costs 25 million. No way in hell a straight bridge costs 100 million.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa...1_5287702.html

Closer to home the 18th Street overpass in Brandon cost 65 million.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Highway 17 Calibogie Interchange costs 25 million. No way in hell a straight bridge costs 100 million.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa...1_5287702.html

FINALLY! Comparables! Thank you!

And this Calabogie is even tighter construction than Carberry, and requires land acquisition (Carberry is mostly pre-buffered). Our $15-20m numbers are looking stronger. Thank you!

[Dengler Avenue]

Now all of you have me worried whether the interchanges and overpasses will be maintained when TCH is being twinned around Falcon Lake...

[VANRIDERFAN]

Regina Bypass - 1.8 Billion

The full project scope encompasses 464 single-lane kilometres of work, roughly the distance between Regina and Medicine Hat.[5] It consists of:

12 overpasses,
40 km of new four-lane highway,
20 km of resurfaced four-lane highway,
55 km of new service roads, and
Twinning of about 5 km of Highway 6.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regi...20Saskatchewan.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Regina Bypass - 1.8 Billion

The full project scope encompasses 464 single-lane kilometres of work, roughly the distance between Regina and Medicine Hat.[5] It consists of:

12 overpasses,
40 km of new four-lane highway,
20 km of resurfaced four-lane highway,
55 km of new service roads, and
Twinning of about 5 km of Highway 6.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regi...20Saskatchewan.

It makes one cringe to think what it he total perimeter upgrade cost

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Highway 17 Calibogie Interchange costs 25 million. No way in hell a straight bridge costs 100 million.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa...1_5287702.html

Closer to home the 18th Street overpass in Brandon cost 65 million.

Keep on fighting the good fight! Hopefully we can find out where this 100 million figure comes from. If it's pulled out of thin air then WSP and MTI deserve to be called out. Spending 10 million or whatever on a RCUT or roundabout sounds much more idiotic when the proper solution is 20-30 million, rather than 100 million.

Those with proper engineering backgrounds - does the roadway median need to be widened at all in the area? The only reason I can see for this inflated figure is significant reconstruction to the road and its base like what were seeing at St Marys/Perimeter. Even then, there is a whackload of utilities that had to be dealt with compared to what should be in and around the Carberry intersection.

[drew]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Highway 17 Calibogie Interchange costs 25 million. No way in hell a straight bridge costs 100 million.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa...1_5287702.html

Closer to home the 18th Street overpass in Brandon cost 65 million.

That link for the Ottawa project is in 2021 $$ - pre-covid inflation (it's already built as per google street view).

Also, soil conditions in the area around the Carberry intersection are significantly more challenging that the Ottawa area.

Not that it should add up to $100M - but certainly double that 25M price tag of the 2021 Ottawa project wouldn't be outrageous IMO. So in my mind, $50M is the best case scenario for a simple bridge and related road works here.

You can see how this works in the mind of the Government. We don't have $$ to throw at this - period. So the cheaper (less sexy) options tend to win out. Unless you want the debt to increase, or something to be cut from somewhere else.

[bodaggin]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Those with proper engineering backgrounds - does the roadway median need to be widened at all in the area?

Can't see any reason for median widening. Here's widths of Carberry vs a Random I-29 (Grand Forks Route) rural interchange. Carberry is actually wider. (Pic 1)

In fact, 3 of the 4 "quadrants" are already pre-buffered for a diamond. Even a clover if so desired. Only 1 corner needs land acquisition, and it's farmland owned by an NPO. Not challenging. (Pic 2)

There are power lines going south, just normal, not HVDC. That's $200-300k to move tops. Your only other hurdle is the sand base of Carberry. Deeper piles, no biggie.

Not an imagineer, but other than those, this is as easy as it gets.

The only reason you would want to touch TCH is to lower grade 1-2m and harvest fill for access build-ups.

If diamond is chosen, building too steep eliminates sightlines over the bridge creating a new hazard for any turns from TCH onto Hwy 5. Giving ability to see OVER the bridge when approaching Hwy 5 from TCH access is key to a true solution.

Loaded potato trucks run this route to McCains all year long. So it's important to solve that conflict. Blind intersection, downhill, add ice, loaded trucks = mega danger. A cloverleaf may be ideal in the end unless sightlines are solved this way. Regardless, these are $2-5m problems, not $100m ones. That blind condition visualized in Pic 3. Sorry for length. Passionate.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Now all of you have me worried whether the interchanges and overpasses will be maintained when TCH is being twinned around Falcon Lake...

This is always a concern with infrastructure here IMO. More comparatively expensive to build and to maintain versus just about anywhere else.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by drew

This is always a concern with infrastructure here IMO. More comparatively expensive to build and to maintain versus just about anywhere else.

Just curious as to why its more expensive in Manitoba than anywhere else in the country.

Also the soil type around Regina is the same as Winnipeg. Deep silt layer due to being a glacial lake bed. And they built their overpasses in a reasonable amount of time.

At the TCH/PTH5 intersection it is more Waskada Clay Loam soil type vice the sand just a little more to the south east. The soil type debate is a red herring IMO.

[drew]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Just curious as to why its more expensive in Manitoba than anywhere else in the country.

Also the soil type around Regina is the same as Winnipeg. Deep silt layer due to being a glacial lake bed. And they built their overpasses in a reasonable amount of time.

At the TCH/PTH5 intersection it is more Waskada Clay Loam soil type vice the sand just a little more to the south east. The soil type debate is a red herring IMO.

That's why I wrote "just about". I am an Engineer - CYA all day everyday.

Soil conditions are NEVER a red herring in Manitoba. I spend a lot of my days designing outrageously expensive foundations for buildings all over this province.

The problem MB has that SK doesn't - is $$. Soil conditions and weather conditions may be similar - but the provincial coffers aren't.