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  #201  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2020, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'd definitely disagree. Frankfurt is soul-destroying. Germans mostly hate it. And I haven't met North Americans who like it either.
To be fair, my experience was that Frankfurt was about as interesting for urbanists as, say, Seattle.

A place where you can get a good lay of the land in a day of wandering, but not a place you let yourself get immersed into. Not a place where you wake up excited the next morning ready to go exploring again.
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  #202  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2020, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
And this is typical residential inner-city Frankfurt:

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.1267...7i13312!8i6656

Meanwhile just behind this is block after block of this kinda stuff: https://goo.gl/maps/JG9DhFbVCUFHnCC19

And many blocks like this in the commercial centre: https://goo.gl/maps/kw4QkeT96ziKVPUD7

The buildings themselves are mostly non-historic, but the built form is good. The city as a whole may be a bit dull, but if Frankfurt were dropped in North America it'd pretty obviously at least be one of its most urban cities.


https://depositphotos.com/61475067/s...t-am-main.html
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  #203  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2020, 4:24 PM
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And Seattle is a top 10 US city for a number of things including urbanity.

Whereas people jokingly say Frankfurt is not even worthy of being a German or European city!
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  #204  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
its not jane st in built form either. at all. thats a typical urban euro block look.
It isn't, though. The typical European block is made of courtyard apartments. Those are townhouses.
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  #205  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 1:53 AM
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Benelux and UK seem characterized by townhouse vernacular rather than the typical Euro midrise apartment blocks.
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  #206  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 7:26 AM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Le français était la langue étrangère traditionnelle enseignée dans les écoles britanniques à l'époque (mais maintenant c'est l'espagnol).
Lol, it doesn't really matter since English-speakers have been very bad at learning foreign languages on average anyway. They are even worse than us Frenchies in that respect.

Those really interested in that kind of education can be very good, though. For example, I saw a few Americans fluent in French like it would leave me speechless, just like - wow... WOW! Some are good, though!

But most often, they regard foreign languages as a waste of time and won't do any effort, 'cause they think English is dominant, rules the world, so they expect anybody to speak it fluently.

Mais toi, Muppet, t'as l'air assez bon en vrai. Ton français pourrait être meilleur que mon anglais. Je suis très agréablement surpris. Ha ha. C'est bien.
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  #207  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 9:17 AM
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Merci bien messieurs, de même pour vous. En Angleterre la langue seconde est souvent oubliée après la scolarité (sauf aux Pays de Galle et Ecosse ou ils apprennent Gaelic), parce-que les médias étrangers sont une chose rare (c'est très mal, commes les filmes et musique surtout) -c'est assez dur de l'utiliser quand il n ya les personnnes à qui parler/ ecouter. Ma souer at copain habitent en Pays-Bas et Danemark et c'est dur pour eux d'apprendre aussi car tout le monde répondre en Anglais.

One thing that really annoys me about the English speaking world is how blinkered we've become to everything outside it, and how much we're missing; it really is our loss - a vast plethora of contemporary culture and icons, and unbeknownst a great deal that's better. The fact 'foreign language film' is a single category that covers the entirety of the world's media, while largely excluding them from the rest of the categories says a lot. K-pop, Parasite, Penelope Cruz or flipping Despacito is only the tip of a humongous iceberg, while many actors, speakers, writers and musicians that have made it this side are oft assumed to be American/ Brit i.e Arcade Fire being Québécois as I'm sure you're aware.

It's not so much that English speakers feel the language superior abroad (trust me, we're entirely out of our depth and anxious when approaching a native), but that's all we often know to do + the convenience of it being the current lingua franca. We realise how rude it is to just automatically speak in English, while unavoidably doing it -we even have memes about loud, obnoxious Brits abroad, shouting louder at 'Johnny Foreigner' as if to help make them understand, which is how they did things in colonial times, and how chavvy old people still function on the Costa del Sol, who've lived there for decades without speaking a word. People who do that are badly looked down upon in UK (and implied as well, racist). If we don't at least ask if you speak English at the start, while being in an entirely foreign country, then that's beyond the pale imo.

One thing I've noticed is on the other way round a completely different attitude - if a foreigner comes to the country and doesn't speak English, they're kinda looked on as stupid and alien. Utterly hypocritical I know .

In short Brits abroad are quite apologetic and painfully aware when not knowing the language, yet unsympathising when foreigners do the same here.

Last edited by muppet; Jul 19, 2020 at 11:18 AM.
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  #208  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 9:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post

The buildings themselves are mostly non-historic, but the built form is good. The city as a whole may be a bit dull, but if Frankfurt were dropped in North America it'd pretty obviously at least be one of its most urban cities.

Isn't Frankfurt rebuilding more of its Old City again?




https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...endergasse.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...markt-1900.jpg
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  #209  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
Lol, it doesn't really matter since English-speakers have been very bad at learning foreign languages on average anyway. They are even worse than us Frenchies in that respect.

Those really interested in that kind of education can be very good, though. For example, I saw a few Americans fluent in French like it would leave me speechless, just like - wow... WOW! Some are good, though!

But most often, they regard foreign languages as a waste of time and won't do any effort, 'cause they think English is dominant, rules the world, so they expect anybody to speak it fluently.

Mais toi, Muppet, t'as l'air assez bon en vrai. Ton français pourrait être meilleur que mon anglais. Je suis très agréablement surpris. Ha ha. C'est bien.
Je connais des Américains et des Britanniques qui parlent un excellent français (ou espagnol) mais c'est assez rare. Et pour la langue écrite c'est encore plus rare.

Notre ami muppet était sûrement premier de classe dans son cours de français.
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  #210  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by muppet View Post
One thing I've noticed is on the other way round a completely different attitude - if a foreigner comes to the country and doesn't speak English, they're kinda looked on as stupid and alien. Utterly hypocritical I know .

In short Brits abroad are quite apologetic and painfully aware when not knowing the language, yet unsympathising when foreigners do the same here.
This isn't really unique to English-speakers, though. Native English speakers (or anyone who can speak English) are perhaps the only type in the world that can go into a country, not speak the local language, and not look stupid.
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  #211  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
But most often, they regard foreign languages as a waste of time and won't do any effort, 'cause they think English is dominant, rules the world, so they expect anybody to speak it fluently.
It's not that. Honestly, I think Americans probably have more desire to learn a non-English language than any other nationality on Earth. Most don't because of the lack of opportunity.
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  #212  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 4:19 PM
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It's not that. Honestly, I think Americans probably have more desire to learn a non-English language than any other nationality on Earth. Most don't because of the lack of opportunity.
The public schools in the US just don't give a shit, I didn't have the option to learn a different language until the very end of middle school and even then they only allowed a select few students. They should be teaching different languages at 1st and 2nd grade. Also usually parents don't care either (probably because English is just too dominant in North America) my mother her parents and siblings all speak fluent Italian (it's their native language) but they never bothered to teach the younger generations other than a few prayers.

I agree that most people here would love to know a different language but by the time they realize it they're usually adults and it's much harder to learn at that point and you'll never be as fluent as somebody who was learning since elementary school.
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  #213  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 5:02 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It's not that. Honestly, I think Americans probably have more desire to learn a non-English language than any other nationality on Earth. Most don't because of the lack of opportunity.
American exceptionalism par excellence: we might be ranked last in this category, but in our hearts we're #1
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  #214  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2020, 8:54 PM
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One thing I've noticed is on the other way round a completely different attitude - if a foreigner comes to the country and doesn't speak English, they're kinda looked on as stupid and alien. Utterly hypocritical I know .

In short Brits abroad are quite apologetic and painfully aware when not knowing the language, yet unsympathising when foreigners do the same here.
Have you ever considered that people traveling abroad are a totally different group of individuals from ones who at home and then have foreign tourists coming to them?
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  #215  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 7:12 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
This isn't really unique to English-speakers, though. Native English speakers (or anyone who can speak English) are perhaps the only type in the world that can go into a country, not speak the local language, and not look stupid.
Nah, they still look plenty stupid. They just don't understand the snide comments being made about them as they make their complex Starbucks orders loudly in English to bewildered baristas.
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  #216  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 7:27 AM
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Learning Danish and Swedish, I am consistently surpassed by Russians and Spaniards who simply cannot navigate these countries in their native language. Whereas I don't even have the old Montreal advantage (i.e. they can speak English perfectly well but it sort of annoys them). They want to practice!
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  #217  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 9:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Je connais des Américains et des Britanniques qui parlent un excellent français (ou espagnol) mais c'est assez rare. Et pour la langue écrite c'est encore plus rare.

Notre ami muppet était sûrement premier de classe dans son cours de français.
Facile de trouver des Américains qui parlent bien français (si on considère ça du français... certains ne seront pas d'accord avec le qualificatif que j'ai utilisé, aucun doute), suffit de savoir où chercher.
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  #218  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 2:58 PM
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Nah, they still look plenty stupid. They just don't understand the snide comments being made about them as they make their complex Starbucks orders loudly in English to bewildered baristas.
Well, that looks stupid because it is stupid. But it's still not the same. There is a classist component to being a native English speaker, or even one that speaks English fluently. People that migrate from non-English speaking countries to other countries without knowing the local language will get treated very much like Americans treat Latin Mexicans and central Americans.
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  #219  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion View Post
St. Louis certainly has some neighborhoods with European-esque architecture, but they still come off looking Midwestern in the end whether it's the density or the wideness of the city streets. For the most European looking neighborhood I'll go ahead and put forward Lafayette Square:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6157...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6187...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6160...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6192...7i16384!8i8192

Soulard would be my second choice:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6042...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6074...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6069...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6082...7i16384!8i8192

Soulard is far bigger than Lafayette Square, so there's more of it. St. Louis is big on essentially micro-neighborhoods.



To me the West Loop looks like what downtown St. Louis will look like once it's fully revitalized. Lots of brick midrises here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6322...7i16384!8i8192

For a real gut punch though, here's what downtown St. Louis used to look like back in the day:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6305...7i16384!8i8192

The area is called Laclede's Landing, and it's basically all that's left from the Arch grounds getting demolished, the highways going in, the streets getting widened across the city, etc.
appreciate the STL love, Emprise. personally, I don't think there is much in the Midwest that feels truly "European" either (aside from churches that were explicitly modeled after European analogs) though there are certainly parts that approach it. STL architecture was heavily influenced by its largely German heritage and abundance of red clay, but as you pointed out in mentioning Laclede's landing, much (half? most?) has been lost. (There's an entire thread devoted to the destruction of the STL riverfront, which was once the largest US cast-iron district outside of NYC: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=162521.) presently, i would say that Soulard (and its formerly connected neighbor LaSalle Park) is the most European-feeling part of STL, or at least it has a sort-of swampy "old-world" feel to it, with streets about as narrow as you'll find in the Midwest. a number of the surrounding neighborhoods share architectural style and form with Soulard, but there's something about Soulard that is more authentic-feeling for some reason. i've seen historic aerials of STL, and some more recent, that give off an absolutely Dickensian vibe. from street level, though, it all feels solidly Midwestern—or maybe interior river city—to me.

Soulard:





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  #220  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 11:36 PM
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In the second picture, downtown is behind us...?

Some of these buildings look like typical Federal style (early 1800s).
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