Trillium Line Upgrades & Extension (Stage 2) [Greenboro to Airport/Limebank] | U/C

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Well I can't find any reference to a Kanata BRT extension on the Stage 2 website. If it is so easy to find, please provide a link (also very easy to do).

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/where/

There is your link

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/where/

There is your link

Ya, like I said... despite this map showing BRT, the City is actively pursuing LRT for "Phase 3" It is very unlikely a Transitway to Terry Fox will be built in Kanata before LRT.

Beyond Stage 2 and Baseline BRT, everything else is very subject to change pending the upcoming Municipal election and the 2018 or 2019 (not sure of timing) Transportation Master Plan update.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/where/

There is your link

There is no, nada, ziltch text stating that a Kanata BRT will be built in Stage 2 in that link. The only thing I see is the map I was talking about in the post you replied to.

As I said earlier, that map shows future BRT lines that might one day get built (like the Baseline BRT) but none of them are part of Stage 2. As Multi-modal said, the current plan is to skip BRT and go directly to LRT west of Eagleson.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

There is no, nada, ziltch text stating that a Kanata BRT will be built in Stage 2 in that link. The only thing I see is the map I was talking about in the post you replied to.

As I said earlier, that map shows future BRT lines that might one day get built (like the Baseline BRT) but none of them are part of Stage 2. As Multi-modal said, the current plan is to skip BRT and go directly to LRT west of Eagleson.

I see what you are doing. Instead of actually accepting the map at face value which would mean actually seeing a transitway being built to Kanata before it gets converted to LRT, you are putting a your own spin on it.

If the transitway to Kanata was not part of stage 2 then it would be left out. Look how quickly they altered the map when they added LRT station Moodie and moved Trillium Line further south. You cant argue with that map and thats exactly what you are doing.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I see what you are doing. Instead of actually accepting the map at face value which would mean actually seeing a transitway being built to Kanata before it gets converted to LRT, you are putting a your own spin on it.

If the transitway to Kanata was not part of stage 2 then it would be left out. Look how quickly they altered the map when they added LRT station Moodie and moved Trillium Line further south. You cant argue with that map and thats exactly what you are doing.

They aren't exactly part of stage 2. The are planned projects on the master plan that are in the same timeframe as stage 2. They were planned long before the lrt was even decided on

[PHrenetic]

Good Day...
and sorry, but no.
The preliminary discussions about BRT extensions all the way out to Kanata were decidedly nixed for an immediate analysis towards a direct EA for LRT by all the west councillors and Jimmy (for the politics of it). The BRT now in place was EA'd and contracted several years ago, before the move to go direct to LRT gained 'steam'. It really took after the - first BRT, then LRT - imperative for the eastern expansion was smashed as being totally and expensively illogical to even the most fiscally conservative elements (inc. Jimmy). This is a case where we can thank most councillors for being adamant that LRT should happen, period. So. The map was produced in the earliest of the Phase 2 website, and is only amended as necessary. And that means that the necessity for the west expansion to Tanger and CTC modification does not yet exist, since (1) thjat is Phase 3, and (2) it is still only in the analysis stage, not yet EA study. When the analysis is done recommending LRT in Phase 3 and go forward with an EA, will the map be modified (a tiny example of not putting the cart before the horse and pre-ordaining the outcome of the study.
So.

[roger1818]

I think I found where OtrainUser's confusion comes from. On the Stage 2, Confederation Line West page, it says:

HIGHLIGHTS:

• 15 kilometres of new rail and 11 new stations
• Provides direct connections to light rail transit for the communities of Hintonburg, Island Park, Westboro, Laurentian, Woodroffe/Lincoln Heights, White Haven-Queensview Terrace North, Bayshore, Iris, Centrepointe, and Lincoln Heights.
• Preserves greenspace while increasing access to Ottawa River pathways, Westboro beach, Pinecrest Creek Corridor and the National Capital Commission’s future Linear Waterfront Park.
• Connects important employment, shopping and education nodes, including Alongquin College, Bayshore Shopping Centre, Pinecrest and Westboro.
• Extension includes the future expansion of Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) in the west to provide fast connections from Terry Fox Drive and March Road to the new LRT hub at Moodie.

The words "future expansion" indicate that the BRT will be done in the future, not as part of the Stage 2 LRT. It would have been clearer if they had added the implied words "connection to"

As for why the BRT extension to Terry Fox hasn't been converted to LRT on the map, funding hasn't been received and so it isn't official. They didn't add Moodie to the map until a final decision was made.

[Lakeofthewood]

Looking at the rest of the map, it appears they are using the same grey dashed line in other parts of the city, including the BRT to Barrhaven and the Southeast Transitway.

Forgiving my ignorance of the Kanata bus system (Kanata is a dark and far away place), is it possible they are just referring to an extension of the existing bus only lanes on Highway 417? There are currently some between Moodie and Eagleson, and the city's TMP considers bus-only lanes to be "Bus Rapid Transit" facilities.

In addition, the city's Affordable Transit Network shows BRT out to Terry Fox, which would be in line with the Stage 2 map. It even identifies it in the TMP with the "Continuous Lanes" line type (as opposed to Baseline, which is identified using a line-type labelled as "BRT")

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

Looking at the rest of the map, it appears they are using the same grey dashed line in other parts of the city, including the BRT to Barrhaven and the Southeast Transitway.

Correct. That is what I was trying to say earlier.

Forgiving my ignorance of the Kanata bus system (Kanata is a dark and far away place), is it possible they are just referring to an extension of the existing bus only lanes on Highway 417? There are currently some between Moodie and Eagleson, and the city's TMP considers bus-only lanes to be "Bus Rapid Transit" facilities.

That has been my belief all along.

In addition, the city's Affordable Transit Network shows BRT out to Terry Fox, which would be in line with the Stage 2 map. It even identifies it in the TMP with the "Continuous Lanes" line type (as opposed to Baseline, which is identified using a line-type labelled as "BRT")

Yes. When drawing the map, the assumption would have been that eventually the Kanata and Baseline BRT lines would be built, so they likely showed them to make the system look more integrated and make Kanata residents feel less excluded.

[Truenorth00]

The more I look at the map, the more it seems to me like it makes more sense for STO to operate across the Prince of Wales bridge to Bayview than it does to extend the Trillium to Alexandre-Tache.

Bayview is a natural transfer point.

Of course the ideal would have been one long LRT line on the Trillium corridor and the existing Rapibus corridor. But since that's not going to happen, looking at how best to have the two systems it meet, it makes sense to me to do it at Bayview than on the Quebec side.

What do you guys think?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The more I look at the map, the more it seems to me like it makes more sense for STO to operate across the Prince of Wales bridge to Bayview than it does to extend the Trillium to Alexandre-Tache.

Bayview is a natural transfer point.

Of course the ideal would have been one long LRT line on the Trillium corridor and the existing Rapibus corridor. But since that's not going to happen, looking at how best to have the two systems it meet, it makes sense to me to do it at Bayview than on the Quebec side.

What do you guys think?

Why not both?

Pros: People can easily get to Ottawa from Gatineau without an extra transfer and vice versa. No one can complain about that.

Cons: I guess operationally, it'd be hard to jam to sets of trains onto the one bridge.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Why not both?

Pros: People can easily get to Ottawa from Gatineau without an extra transfer and vice versa. No one can complain about that.

Cons: I guess operationally, it'd be hard to jam to sets of trains onto the one bridge.

The thing is, it's not useful to just transfer at Alexandre-Tache for most Ottawa originating riders. In fact, it's worse. The rider comes from the east or west, transfers at Bayview and then again at Tache.

Instead, if Bayview became a hub/transfer station for STO, you'd get directly on to STO and save a transfer.

Similarly, I doubt Gatineau originating passengers want to transfer at Tache and again at Bayview to get to downtown Ottawa. Rather for them the Rapibus corridor terminating at Bayview is better. If downtown bound, they could transfer directly on to the Confederation Line.

Transfers on both sides would be ideal. But I doubt there's enough capacity on that bridge.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The thing is, it's not useful to just transfer at Alexandre-Tache for most Ottawa originating riders. In fact, it's worse. The rider comes from the east or west, transfers at Bayview and then again at Tache.

Instead, if Bayview became a hub/transfer station for STO, you'd get directly on to STO and save a transfer.

Similarly, I doubt Gatineau originating passengers want to transfer at Tache and again at Bayview to get to downtown Ottawa. Rather for them the Rapibus corridor terminating at Bayview is better. If downtown bound, they could transfer directly on to the Confederation Line.

Transfers on both sides would be ideal. But I doubt there's enough capacity on that bridge.

That's true. In my mind I have the Trillium line stuck as more of a north-south line and kind of end up neglecting the east-west part.


Something interesting to note about any kind of Gatineau rail project would be the rail that curves eastwards on the other side of the bridge. A train station (for any rail service) parallel to Taché almost right next to the Terasse de la Chaudière would probably be a big plus. I could see the Trillium line doing that instead of continuing along the rapibus corridor.

As far as capacity on the bridge, there could be sufficient space on Lemieux island for a passing track.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Why not both?

Pros: People can easily get to Ottawa from Gatineau without an extra transfer and vice versa. No one can complain about that.

Cons: I guess operationally, it'd be hard to jam to sets of trains onto the one bridge.

Same reason they are planning on trains to/from the airport transfer at South Keys and not run all the way to Bayview. Single track limits departure frequency too much to allow a line split. It might be possible if you split it from the Trillium Line and alternate between running two trains north back-to-back and then two trains south back-to-back.

I do like the idea of extending the Rapibus line to the POW bridge running buses over it. Eventually when the Rapibus line is converted to rail, the Trillium line is double tracked and pigs sprout wings we can use the POW bridge for LRT.

[TransitZilla]

The Heron Rd cycling project page is making it seem more likely that the Elwood diamond will be grade separated.

https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/publi...l-design-study

The map below shows a north-south pathway crossing the Trillium line. The only way I can see this working is if the line is grade separated here.


This is how that north-south pathway is described (emphasis added):

In addition, existing connections to the bridge that crosses Heron Road just west of Data Centre Road are proposed to be upgraded for cycling. This bridge, which contains a vehicle ramp that connects eastbound Heron Road to northbound Bronson Avenue and eastbound Riverside Drive, has a two-way barrier-protected MUP on it. The plan involves converting 1.8-metre concrete pathways at the bridge approaches into 3-metre asphalt MUPs so that it will be legal to cycle all the way from one side of Heron to the other. The MUPs will have grades that meet accessibility standards, meaning that they will be less steep than the facilities being replaced.

A MUP to link the north side of the bridge to bus stops on Data Centre Road (adjacent to Heron Station) will be developed to further support the “bike-ride-walk” mode.

A future MUP is also proposed to link the south side of the bridge to the Brookfield multi-use pathway and, from there, the Sawmill Creek Pathway. This alignment relies upon work associated with Stage 2 LRT changes to the Trillium Line.

[lrt's friend]

I am still not sure how grade separation is accomplished. That is a very complicated location with two railways, the Transitway and Sawmill Creek (in a significant gully) all in close proximity. It seems that a major reconfiguration will be required. I have not seen anything suggesting that it is covered by the Phase 2 project. There are at least 10 bridges and underpasses in that immediate area.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

The Heron Rd cycling project page is making it seem more likely that the Elwood diamond will be grade separated.

I thought that this was already announced?

I could be mistaken though, maybe they had only mentioned the possibility of it.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am still not sure how grade separation is accomplished. That is a very complicated location with two railways, the Transitway and Sawmill Creek (in a significant gully) all in close proximity. It seems that a major reconfiguration will be required. I have not seen anything suggesting that it is covered by the Phase 2 project. There are at least 10 bridges and underpasses in that immediate area.

I think my understanding (can't remember source) is that they are most likely going to lower the Via Rail line slightly and raise the Trillium line slightly. I expect that at the very least the Trillium Line bridge over the Transitway will have to be re-built as a result.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I think my understanding (can't remember source) is that they are most likely going to lower the Via Rail line slightly and raise the Trillium line slightly. I expect that at the very least the Trillium Line bridge over the Transitway will have to be re-built as a result.

Alternately it might be easier to raise both the Via Rail track and Transitway and lower the Trillium line to go under both. Sawmill Creek does present challenges to that option though.

Either way, replacing the transitway bridge will allow double tracking in that section.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Alternately it might be easier to raise both the Via Rail track and Transitway and lower the Trillium line to go under both. Sawmill Creek does present challenges to that option though.

Either way, replacing the transitway bridge will allow double tracking in that section.

You would also need to double track the Sawmill Creek bridge, but of course they should re-build all bridges for double track (including Via, really).