Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

A lot of people, ca. 1999, couldn't see much advantage in the proposed O-Train.

I can see LOTS of advantage in extending the O-train, at least as far as the government offices, and at least as a temporary measure until some time 500 or 600 years from now when Gatineau finally decides it wants a real transit system.

Maybe by then, the rest of Ottawa that's not outside the greenbelt can have one, too.

Where are there government offices along that rail line? Thérèse de Chaudière is a kilometre away (about the same distance as Pimisi station) There are three greenish low-rise buildings along Montcalm, none of which identify themselves as being government buildings.

[McC]

there's a branch that goes right to Eddy and Taché.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Where are there government offices along that rail line? Thérèse de Chaudière is a kilometre away (about the same distance as Pimisi station) There are three greenish low-rise buildings along Montcalm, none of which identify themselves as being government buildings.

Not sure about directly along the rail line, but a short extension to Terrasses de la Chaudière would provide access to many thousands of government office jobs there and at Portage a block away. Portage is one of the largest concentrations of government workers in a single location in the world. (According to local lore, second only to the Pentagon.)

And going in a more northerly direction on another route those green-silver glass buildings near Montcalm and Crémazie are for the most part government offices as well. They are actually on the existing rail line though it is not in use at the moment. The Rapibus currently runs right next to the rail line though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by McC

there's a branch that goes right to Eddy and Taché.

Quite true. Although I am not sure if it's been ripped out or not?

[Acajack]

Just thinking about it, but O-Train extension(s) to Terrasses and/or Montcalm/Crémazie would likely be most beneficial to public servants living in the south and west ends of Ottawa.

As I've said before, none of the major cross-river origin-destination routings from Gatineau are to inner west Ottawa and points beyond going west and south. They're very predominantly to downtown Ottawa and then it's to points in inner east Ottawa (Vanier-St. Laurent-Montfort-Cité collégiale, etc.) The only major exception to this rule is Tunney's Pasture.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I've said before, none of the major cross-river origin-destination routings from Gatineau are to inner west Ottawa and points beyond going west and south.

For existing residents, maybe; but things change over time. Pre O-Train, South Keys would not have been a terribly desirable location for Carleton students, now it is, old Hull would become the same; likewise for anyone working at Confederation Heights, a commute that would be pretty awful from Gatineau today.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quite true. Although I am not sure if it's been ripped out or not?

those look like tracks to me:
https://goo.gl/maps/MV6By4xJE292
https://goo.gl/maps/W1sEzqAfSzs

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by McC

For existing residents, maybe; but things change over time. Pre O-Train, South Keys would not have been a terribly desirable location for Carleton students, now it is, old Hull would become the same; likewise for anyone working at Confederation Heights, a commute that would be pretty awful from Gatineau today.

This raises the age-old question of whether we build to address current needs and problems, or if we build for the future and "direct" the needs of tomorrow.

[McC]

when the price tag is in the hundreds of millions and billions, you address real proven needs, when it's in the tens of millions (like the original O-Train was), and brings new life and use to existing infrastructure (like the original O-Train did), then I think you can take some liberties to experiment a bit more just to see what happens, and whether and how you might shape future demand (like the original O-Train has). The City frequently commits $60 Million to far more dubious projects than this one, and should not be letting the bridge or the three Talents rust and rot when they could be useful, even if only to a niche of riders. Anyone who thinks this sh/could be the primary X-border route is mistaken, but equally mistaken is anyone who thinks it would be un-used, useless, or even a poor return on the dollar (unless some terrible project manager insists on hideously over-engineering the Bridge rehab and any updates required for the Talents, and drives the price tag through the roof because "safety" or something).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Where are there government offices along that rail line? Thérèse de Chaudière is a kilometre away (about the same distance as Pimisi station) There are three greenish low-rise buildings along Montcalm, none of which identify themselves as being government buildings.

There is a rail spur, or at least a ROW, that turns east from the Hull side of the PoW bridge, almost to Eddy.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by McC

when the price tag is in the hundreds of millions and billions, you address real proven needs, when it's in the tens of millions (like the original O-Train was), and brings new life and use to existing infrastructure (like the original O-Train did), then I think you can take some liberties to experiment a bit more just to see what happens, and whether and how you might shape future demand (like the original O-Train has). The City frequently commits $60 Million to far more dubious projects than this one,

Especially for those targeted at serving internal-combustion fuelled, rubber-tired vehicles.

and should not be letting the bridge or the three Talents rust and rot when they could be useful, even if only to a niche of riders.

I remain convinced that the "niche" is much larger than people can realize in the absence of actually extending the train.

And I'd go even further, and suggest that any decadal plan to "revitalize" the Hull waterfront should include extending an already-extended O-Train from Eddy/La Chaudière area east to Portage and the Museum of Whatever Its Called This Decade.

Anyone who thinks this sh/could be the primary X-border route is mistaken, but equally mistaken is anyone who thinks it would be un-used, useless, or even a poor return on the dollar (unless some terrible project manager insists on hideously over-engineering the Bridge rehab and any updates required for the Talents, and drives the price tag through the roof because "safety" or something).

Or "public art".

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

There is a rail spur, or at least a ROW, that turns east from the Hull side of the PoW bridge, almost to Eddy.

That is a different proposal than others I have seen (which use the rail line heading to the casino). I think that is a good idea if it is feasible to use that spur.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That is a different proposal than others I have seen (which use the rail line heading to the casino). I think that is a good idea if it is feasible to use that spur.

Are there any serious proposals for either routing anyway? I did not think there were.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

I'm no engineer, but it seems logical that it will cost much, much less to refurbish the bridge in its current configuration as a single rail track than to expand/refurbish/replace/rebuild as a two lane roadway capable of carrying truck traffic.

Agreed, but when you factor in the savings of $2 billion on the downtown tunnel, which option is cheaper?

It's far from perfect, but it could result in both OC Transpo and STO running fewer buses over the bridges, Based on the number of complaints I've seen in this forum about STO buses clogging downtown, I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that suggestions to reduce the number of STO routes entering Ottawa would be welcomed.

Possibly, but my guess is not at the expense of subsidizing all Ottawa bound Gatineau taxpayers at Ottawa taxpayer expense. If the city of Gatineau was willing to come to the table, then maybe, but they aren't currently.

Essentially, this reduces Rideau Centre's role as a hub for STO/OCTranspo connections and shifts it to Bayview. Maybe that's good, maybe not.

For now at least, the Rideau Centre and Wellingdon st. are much more attractive destinations than Bayview station, which is pretty much a guaranteed connection.

I'm having difficulty visualizing what the Ottawa-side approach to the truck bridge would be, short of decking over the Trillium line. Granted, for up to $2B in comparable costs, there's probably a lot that could be done.

That's my point. $2B, is a lot money to work with. They could deck over it as you suggest, they could tunnel under it, they could expropriate land beside the tracks, or they could use the rail ROW and dig a rail tunnel (using the money saved on the truck tunnel) north of the Queensway with a better alignment than the current tracks (which currently head NW, away from downtown). That last option might be too expensive though.

Ultimately, I guess I'm saying that I believe the best use for the POW bridge is for transit, preferably rail

Ultimately, what I am suggesting is we could possibly:

1. Save money (compared to the cost of the truck tunnel),
2. Have a better route for the trucks (with fewer trucks on the downtown 417), and
3. End up with a better location for the train bridge,

Is it the best option? I don't know, but I think it is certainly worth at least looking at as it might be.

[McC]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That's my point. $2B, is a lot money to work with. They could deck over it as you suggest, they could tunnel under it, they could expropriate land beside the tracks, or they could use the rail ROW and dig a rail tunnel (using the money saved on the truck tunnel) north of the Queensway with a better alignment than the current tracks (which currently head NW, away from downtown). That last option might be too expensive though.

The land for an eastbound 417 off-ramp to connect to the old Champagne Parkway alignment (which is essentially what you're talking about) was sold off and has been filled-in with new houses. The Rochester on-ramp (westbound) is also too close, and would interfere with westbound traffic trying to exit to go north towards Gatineau. The City is hoping for lots of new construction (and new property taxes) around the future Gladstone station that they would have to kiss goodbye. And then there's the far more basic fact that there are reasons the Champagne Parkway was never built in the first place, and it's not going to happen.

[McC]

For the moment: The Prince of Wales Park
July 9, 2016 | By Spacing

http://spacing.ca/ottawa/2016/07/09/...ce-wales-park/

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by McC

The land for an eastbound 417 off-ramp to connect to the old Champagne Parkway alignment (which is essentially what you're talking about) was sold off and has been filled-in with new houses.

A luxury condominium has been build near the corner of Young St and Railway St? Google Maps still shows a rundown commercial building.

The Rochester on-ramp (westbound) is also too close, and would interfere with westbound traffic trying to exit to go north towards Gatineau.

They could either close the Rochester ramps (it is very close to Bronson anyway) or they just not provide direct access to/from the east since I suspect the vast majority of the truck traffic is to/from the west (much of the traffic to/from the east from/to Gatineau is likely already using Hwy 50).

The City is hoping for lots of new construction (and new property taxes) around the future Gladstone station that they would have to kiss goodbye.

Not necessarily, depending on the option chosen for the connection.

And then there's the far more basic fact that there are reasons the Champagne Parkway was never built in the first place, and it's not going to happen.

And what are those reasons?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by McC

those look like tracks to me:
https://goo.gl/maps/MV6By4xJE292
https://goo.gl/maps/W1sEzqAfSzs

You're right. I did a check and those tracks are definitely still there.

[McC]

Originally Posted by roger1818

A luxury condominium has been build near the corner of Young St and Railway St? Google Maps still shows a rundown commercial building.

Right, but that only leaves you a one block long off ramp, even shorter than the already-too-short westbound ramps at Parkdale and Bronson.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are there any serious proposals for either routing anyway? I did not think there were.

The 2013 Interprovincial Transit Study was quite amenable to an extension across the PoW into downtown Hull.