Hamilton City Centre | ? | 3x30 & 24 fl | Proposal

[Innsertnamehere]

The existing centre is about as Pomo as it gets, far from Art Deco. It was built less than 40 years ago!

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The existing centre is about as Pomo as it gets, far from Art Deco. It was built less than 40 years ago!

It's still art deco style regardless - and I love the skylight areas of it - even if other parts are lacking. Coming in here during the winter when all the ribs of the ceiling had the lights on was magical.

I just feel like this space is a place where a beautiful statement can be made downtown - have we not learned from the concrete monster that was jackson square? Core urban is evidence that not everything new has to be bland boring and cheap looking. I think because of where it is a lot of us just expect.. more.

The eatens center may not have aged well, but you can tell at least they made some attempt at design throughout.

[Innsertnamehere]

Again, most certainly not Art Deco. It’s as post modern as it gets. Prime late 80’s early 90’s. I wonder who the architect was for it, it has a lot of vibes similar to the Toronto Eaton Centre, just 15 years newer. Could it be the same architect (WZMH?)

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Best not to over-analyse a proposal. The details will become clearer in the coming months and years.

[lachlanholmes]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Yes very uninspiring - destroy a beautiful art deco building and replace it with mediocrity - it's like the only feature of it that is impactful is the fact that it's BIG.

This is the core of the downtown - you're gonna have to step up the wow factor a bit.

Beautiful art deco building? Are we looking at the same Hamilton City Centre?

Innsert is right, it's postmodernism. And it's not a particularly nice example of postmodernism, either.

The new proposal may be dull as dishwater, but to imply it's worse the existing structure is just ridiculous. Whether it represents a sizable improvement is a different story.

---

Re: clock tower

I don't have much confidence in their ability to mix it into the new proposal in a nice manner. If it has to be retained, my preference would be for it to be given to the City and they can put it in a park or something. Maybe in or next to Gore Park somewhere.

[Chronamut]

Hmm I suppose you're right - the original eaton centers were considered art deco that were built during the 30s era- as is the the original eatons center in toronto (eatons college street) still considered an art deco style - those were built by Ross and Macdonald. I may have temporarily gotten my art styles mixed up lol..

and the outside does have some architectural elements above the doors that are better than say, plain curtain wall. Beautiful may be relative - I consider the circular middle area and the roof area of the mall beautiful. All that natural light really does add something, and it may be a bit gauche to make this comparison, but it reminds me of the crystal palace architecture a bit.



The hamilton buildings architect was Cadillac Fairview.

On that note hamilton used to have its own crystal palace in victoria park

[shoelessjoe]

Interestingly had the Hamilton Eaton Centre been more successful the existing early 1990s pastel post-modern aesthetic likely would've been long-since wiped away in favor of something more current. The Montreal EC had a decidedly similar design until recently -- the Calgary EC has also been substantially modernized in recent years (now called The Core) -- even the flagship CF Toronto Eaton Centre has been heavily modified (flooring, railings, lighting, etc) although the overall "feel" of the long Milanese galleria remains. The design of the Hamilton EC (or CC...) has indeed aged poorly, but Cadillac Fairview and T. Eaton Co. spent reasonably lavishly building it. The interior is passable (although not particular well-designed from a retail 'flow' perspective), but from it's debut 30 years ago I always thought the exterior was hideous (I once heard it described as looking like a wedding cake)...the metal flags, the weird exterior steel 'gingerbread' work, etc.

[Innsertnamehere]

Toronto Eaton Centre is also most certainly not Art Deco. More of an early post modern industrial. Do you even know what Art Deco is? It’s a style of mostly used from the 1920’s through to the early 1950’s, and is predominated by smooth curve features, limestone, sculptures, and gold/metal accents. None of which the Eaton Centre in Toronto has. The Chrysler building is Art Deco. The Empire State Building is Art Deco. The Hamilton GO station is Art Deco. The Eaton Centre is not.

Eaton Centre in Toronto was also designed by Zeidler and B+H. I did misrecall it as WZMH, which was another large firm in the city at the time.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by shoelessjoe

Interestingly had the Hamilton Eaton Centre been more successful the existing early 1990s pastel post-modern aesthetic likely would've been long-since wiped away in favor of something more current. The Montreal EC had a decidedly similar design until recently -- the Calgary EC has also been substantially modernized in recent years (now called The Core) -- even the flagship CF Toronto Eaton Centre has been heavily modified (flooring, railings, lighting, etc) although the overall "feel" of the long Milanese galleria remains. The design of the Hamilton EC (or CC...) has indeed aged poorly, but Cadillac Fairview and T. Eaton Co. spent reasonably lavishly building it. The interior is passable (although not particular well-designed from a retail 'flow' perspective), but from it's debut 30 years ago I always thought the exterior was hideous (I once heard it described as looking like a wedding cake)...the metal flags, the weird exterior steel 'gingerbread' work, etc.

Having used to live in Burlington, it was obvious the Mapleview Mall design scheme was very similar, with pastel pinks and greens et cetera. Those have long since been replaced with a much nicer modern design.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Toronto Eaton Centre is also most certainly not Art Deco. More of an early post modern industrial. Do you even know what Art Deco is? It’s a style of mostly used from the 1920’s through to the early 1950’s, and is predominated by smooth curve features, limestone, sculptures, and gold/metal accents. None of which the Eaton Centre in Toronto has. The Chrysler building is Art Deco. The Empire State Building is Art Deco. The Hamilton GO station is Art Deco. The Eaton Centre is not.

Eaton Centre in Toronto was also designed by Zeidler and B+H. I did misrecall it as WZMH, which was another large firm in the city at the time.

from wikipedia:

"Eaton's leaves an architectural legacy, primarily through the work of the architecture firm Ross and Macdonald. Eaton's College Street in Toronto, opened in 1930, is a highly regarded Art Deco building, and is currently used as a retail, office and residential complex. The Seventh Floor, occupied by the Eaton Auditorium and the Round Room restaurant, was recently restored and now operates as The Carlu event venue. In 1971, the Eaton's / John Maryon Tower near Eaton's College Street was proposed by Eaton's and a developer named John Maryon, but it was never built.

The former downtown Eaton's store in Montreal (now Complexe Les Ailes), also designed by Ross and Macdonald, remains a landmark on Saint Catherine Street and is occupied by a large shopping mall, however, only the outer building's shell remains. Also, although closed following Eaton's bankruptcy, the 9th-floor restaurant in the former downtown Montreal store remains, albeit in a mothballed state and closed to the public. It is protected as a registered historical site, because of its rich Art deco design. Despite this, plans to renovate and reopen the restaurant space were shelved and the site is slowly deteriorating."

you can read more on it here..

I never said Toronto Eatons Center, I was referring to college park, originally known as Eaton's College Street if there was some confusion, the original eatons center from the 1930s, not the toronto eatons center of today from 1977. Hence my inclusion of Ross and Macdonald as the architects. Obv. Ross & mcdonald didn't build the toronto eatons center. Toronto had more than one Eatons center, even before the Toronto Eatons Center was built. And yes I am aware of what art deco is - the interior of the pigott building and sun life building are art deco. Think gotham city architecture.







Might want to dial back that condescending tone a bit.

[Innsertnamehere]

Ok, that's fine. Yea, College Park is Art Deco. i got confused as you discussed 1960's era Eatons Centres being Art Deco (which none of them are), then mentioned Toronto's Eaton Centre, which without further clarifying, for the vast majority of people would mean the current Centre at Yonge and Dundas.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Ok, that's fine. Yea, College Park is Art Deco. i got confused as you discussed 1960's era Eatons Centres being Art Deco (which none of them are), then mentioned Toronto's Eaton Centre, which without further clarifying, for the vast majority of people would mean the current Centre at Yonge and Dundas.

Yes I understand the confusion - I have since amended my original post to include 30s era architecture and to include the original eatons center (eatons college park) for a proper point of reference - hope that clarifies things for people.

Lol look at us with heated art style and architectural discussions

[shoelessjoe]

In it's original decor CF Toronto Eaton Centre had sort of a conservatory aesthetic -- not only with the glass and natural light, but also with its original millwork, trees, planters, etc -- all of which has been eliminated over several interior re-fits, the largest of which replaced the railings and some flooring surfaces several years ago.

The Eaton's Round Room (now The Carlu) and "9th Floor" at the Montreal store were art deco masterpieces.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by shoelessjoe

In it's original decor CF Toronto Eaton Centre had sort of a conservatory aesthetic -- not only with the glass and natural light, but also with its original millwork, trees, planters, etc -- all of which has been eliminated over several interior re-fits, the largest of which replaced the railings and some flooring surfaces several years ago.

The Eaton's Round Room (now The Carlu) and "9th Floor" at the Montreal store were art deco masterpieces.

I miss when malls had trees in them..

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Stunning. Will we ever build anything like this again? I'm leaning very hard towards no.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Stunning. Will we ever build anything like this again? I'm leaning very hard towards no.

Too expensive - Core Urban is our only new builder building anything even remotely heritage and even they take a more minimalist approach.

The problem is the upkeep on those buildings. That and builders want to use excuses to pass off "it was cheaper to build" as "minimalist/modern chic design." Bs. it's lazy design. There is no pride anymore - it's all about what prefab finishes can be tossed together onto a box design designed in an autocad program. I went through the process in school - if the program can't do it don't expect to see it on a new building.

Also it's just easier from a structural calculation method to do it how they do it these days - I laugh at those who have al these stylistic jutouts and then you see it after its built and its been
"engineerized" aka supports have been added or walls filled in or things shifted to be uniform layers because one has to factor in gravity and load and weight bearing on members..

That and we don't have the artisan crafters we used to have so a lot of that stuff has to be outsourced if it is done. People just aren't willing to shell out the $$$ needed for building prestige. We also don't have corporations that last decades and stay in the same building anymore so buildings like the banks and whatnot that have the names embedded in the stone just don't seem practical.

So much has changed.. and it's sad to see a lack of craftsmanship. It's why I got out of architecture - I was depressed at what I had to work with. For the most part you will have to be content with what is left. That and the city doesn't want people creating the old style - they want a "modern" direction where the most creative thing is what size and how to stagger the windows put in the building and what colours of curtain wall glass to use.

[StEC]

I feel that The Well in Toronto is exactly the type of development that we need here to replace Hamilton City Center. Triple A retail, Triple A office space and ultra modern condos/apartments something downtown is lacking all around and the height limit needs to be removed for this prime location!

Something like this would be a defining development & catalyst for downtown and bring a sense of pride to the city! It would say to the rest of Canada and even outside our borders that Hamilton is a city on the move take a serious look at us!

Click for full size!

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Looks decent. With much less commercial space, of course...

[Chronamut]

I think the entire area should just be updated - like in the image above you see the ceiling area is open like it is in the mall already - keep an element like that and grow towers out of it - doesnt mean you have to keep the existing architecture but keep the same structure of what was there and just make it better.

I love the crystal palace ceiling vibe - and it would be cool to see the towers through the ceiling soaring into the sky - and while I am not usually an advocate to remove height limits I do believe at the center of the city the towers should be indeed the tallest and gradually peter away as you get farther away. Toronto DOES have the right idea in that aspect.

[atnor]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

I think the entire area should just be updated - like in the image above you see the ceiling area is open like it is in the mall already - keep an element like that and grow towers out of it - doesnt mean you have to keep the existing architecture but keep the same structure of what was there and just make it better.

Normally I’m all for adaptive reuse and such but I just don’t think the CC is worth it. I thought it looks like a cheap toy castle, others a wedding cake. Just something about the yellow, green, and brown and lack of interaction with James Street...like you later say, a building in the centre should be the pinnacle and the CC was never that.