Lansdowne Park Revitalization | N/A | N/A | Proposed

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by kingcobra

I am one of rare Glebites who want to see the Greenberg-Hunt plan go forward because I feel their plan will be beneficial to Ottawa greatly.

Should Ottawa return to CFL, I will purchase season tickets for my friend and myself! Southsiders rule!

The Southside is really going to rule once they build brand spankin' new stands on the lower part and probably new seats for the upper. I really hope this plan goes through; Lansdowne has been ugly and under-used for way too long.

[ottawatraffic]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Except that here we have the stadium at the RIGHT location. What, in your mind, is wrong with the Hunt-Greenberg proposal?

1. Taxpayers are being asked to pay for the renovations of the stadium
2. The reduction of parking combined with the lack of rapid transit are a formula for failure.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by ottawatraffic

1. Taxpayers are being asked to pay for the renovations of the stadium
2. The reduction of parking combined with the lack of rapid transit are a formula for failure.

There is no reduction in parking...the parking is moved underground.

Also as the city pointed out by at Grey Cup time, most of Lansdowne's parking is located on streets in the surrounding neighbourhood....to the tune of thousands of spots.

As for public transit, there is nothing to say a connection 400 type setup can't be run to lansdowne. Scotiabank place had less public transit than Lansdowne when it was built.

As for who pays what...that has not been negotiated yet as it depends on about 100 different factors. The group suggested the city pay with the lease being 30 years (or something like that). Often then leases are considerably longer than that, but with the group paying for more. Also other things around the park and what kinds of revenue they can generate can have a huge effect on the money details. It is way too soon to make such assumptions.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by ottawatraffic

1. Taxpayers are being asked to pay for the renovations of the stadium
2. The reduction of parking combined with the lack of rapid transit are a formula for failure.

Well,

(1) the taxpayers own the stadium - are you saying we should sell it? If the city gets more tax revenue from the new development, isn't that a good tradeoff in terms of getting the money needed for the renovation?

(2) The stadium has been there for a century. It has held two Grey Cups in the last two decades and over 50,000 people were able to get there and leave without any chaos. I don't see this as a factor.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Well,

(1) the taxpayers own the stadium - are you saying we should sell it? If the city gets more tax revenue from the new development, isn't that a good tradeoff in terms of getting the money needed for the renovation?

(2) The stadium has been there for a century. It has held two Grey Cups in the last two decades and over 50,000 people were able to get there and leave without any chaos. I don't see this as a factor.

I would also like to point out that "ottawatraffic"'s name is rather suggestive. Methinks he/she may be a Suburbanite who is always concerned about traffic woes, and where they will park their car.

[Acajack]

There are only something like 2000 parking spaces at Lansdowne currently anyway, so the on-site parking has never really been a factor in getting most of crowds of 20,000 or 30,000 people to and from the stadium.

In addition to the Grey Cup that was held in an expanded Frank Clair Stadium (in 1988?), note also that the U20 World Cup Soccer matches in 2007 were held with no on-site parking at all (Lansdowne's parking lots were not opened for some reason), and the stadium and local transportation set-up hosted just under 30,000 people for these games without any major hassles.

[fireicedog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are only something like 2000 parking spaces at Lansdowne currently anyway, so the on-site parking has never really been a factor in getting most of crowds of 20,000 or 30,000 people to and from the stadium.

In addition to the Grey Cup that was held in an expanded Frank Clair Stadium (in 1988?), note also that the U20 World Cup Soccer matches in 2007 were held with no on-site parking at all (Lansdowne's parking lots were not opened for some reason), and the stadium and local transportation set-up hosted just under 30,000 people for these games without any major hassles.

Don't forget about the Stones concert a few years ago that coincided with the last day of superX, 45,000 plus the fair patrons. In addition to the thousands outside along Bank and the the canal. Many people just walked.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are only something like 2000 parking spaces at Lansdowne currently anyway, so the on-site parking has never really been a factor in getting most of crowds of 20,000 or 30,000 people to and from the stadium.

In addition to the Grey Cup that was held in an expanded Frank Clair Stadium (in 1988?), note also that the U20 World Cup Soccer matches in 2007 were held with no on-site parking at all (Lansdowne's parking lots were not opened for some reason), and the stadium and local transportation set-up hosted just under 30,000 people for these games without any major hassles.

We held the Grey Cup in an expanded stadium in 2004 with an attendance of 51,242 (probably the biggest crowd at Lansdowne in history). The Tragically Hip played @ halftime. There were traffic issues, but nothing worse than after your average Sens traffic of 20000. The Glebe's bars, restaurants, many sidestreets, and central location act as a buffer for traffic making it the ideal location for such a stadium.

[jitterbug]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Except that here we have the stadium at the RIGHT location. What, in your mind, is wrong with the Hunt-Greenberg proposal?

Mostly I'm concerned about access. Lansdowne is a prime central location, but the current plan has limited underground parking, certainly not enough for all the many uses for the site (football, hockey, hotels, aquarium, sports fields, etc.). Limited parking on its own may not be a big issue if we're encouraging people to use transit, but the site is not well served by public transit and likely never will be (the nearest transitway/light rail connection is at Billings Bridge, too far for most people to walk.) That leaves people to scavenge for parking on nearby streets or take the few buses that run along an already congested Bank Street. (btw - I'm not a "Glebite", but can anticipate their protests if this plan is approved.)

The other concern I have is "what's the rush"? Personally, I feel Ottawans should not be pressured into making a snap decision on something that will irreversibly change the heart of Ottawa for generations. Ottawans deserve to have other options and make an informed choice. The design should serve the city as a whole, not just football fans or professional sports companies. And the aquarium idea is just plain silly - it certainly does not belong inside Aberdeen Pavillion as proposed.

In any case, I predict that football in Canada will be dead within the next 20 years, replaced by soccer.

Bottom line, we should be thinking long-term and looking at future trends rather than clinging to nostalgia.

[ottawatraffic]

Originally Posted by Mille Sabords

Well,

(1) the taxpayers own the stadium - are you saying we should sell it? If the city gets more tax revenue from the new development, isn't that a good tradeoff in terms of getting the money needed for the renovation?

(2) The stadium has been there for a century. It has held two Grey Cups in the last two decades and over 50,000 people were able to get there and leave without any chaos. I don't see this as a factor.

The renovation is not going to be a small number - the magnitude is going to be in the $50-$100 Million. The tax revenue and rental fees will have to be significant for it to make any sense. The city will have to carry the debt on the stadium in a time when it is going into its reserves to balance its budget. Fiscally this is going to be irresponsible.

The city needs a stadium, but it should not be a rushed decision because the CFL gave a 1 year deadline. A new stadium HAS to be on the rapid transit system and the city should decide on the stadium, once it sorts out its transit plan. If we are going to make this kind of investment, I for one think it should be placed at Bayview/LeBreton so it can be incorporated in the system. 4 events in the past 50 years are not great examples because extreme measures were taken to close bank street. If you have MLS and CFL, the city will be dealing with 20+ dates, and they cannot take the same measures they have taken for special events.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ottawatraffic

4 events in the past 50 years are not great examples because extreme measures were taken to close bank street. If you have MLS and CFL, the city will be dealing with 20+ dates, and they cannot take the same measures they have taken for special events.

I believe the only times Bank Street was closed because of an event at Lansdowne was for the two Grey Cup games in 1998 and 2004. I was at the U20 World Cup and Bank Street was definitely open before, during and after the game. As it was during all Rough Riders/Renegades games for many decades.

The fact is, this site has been taking in and dispersing crowds of 20,000 to 30,000 people (and even more during SuperEx) fairly well for as long as anyone can remember.

It’s never been an issue and it’s a red herring to raise it as an argument against Hunt’s plan for Lansdowne, especially since the capacity of the stadium will remain essentially the same as what it was in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Regarding event dates... what is the difference between 12 dates in the old days or 20+ dates if the huge longshot comes through and Ottawa gets an MLS club in addition to a CFL club, and that the soccer club is based at Lansdowne?

In the early days of the Ottawa Senators, the Lansdowne complex was actually busy for just around 100 sports dates a year, with the Sens’ home games, the 67's, and the Rough Riders.

Sure, crowds for hockey were roughly half the size of football crowds, but note that hockey nights were generally in winter, which brings with it a whole bunch of other transportation challenges you don’t have in summer.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jitterbug

In any case, I predict that football in Canada will be dead within the next 20 years, replaced by soccer.

Bottom line, we should be thinking long-term and looking at future trends rather than clinging to nostalgia.

It’s not about nostalgia. Any city of 800,000 people should normally have at least one sports stadium that seats between 25,000 and 30,000 people. Regardless of whether it is used for Canadian football, soccer and any other sport that might become in vogue.

[lrt's friend]

The renovation is not going to be a small number - the magnitude is going to be in the $50-$100 Million. The tax revenue and rental fees will have to be significant for it to make any sense. The city will have to carry the debt on the stadium in a time when it is going into its reserves to balance its budget. Fiscally this is going to be irresponsible.

The city needs a stadium, but it should not be a rushed decision because the CFL gave a 1 year deadline. A new stadium HAS to be on the rapid transit system and the city should decide on the stadium, once it sorts out its transit plan. If we are going to make this kind of investment, I for one think it should be placed at Bayview/LeBreton so it can be incorporated in the system. 4 events in the past 50 years are not great examples because extreme measures were taken to close bank street. If you have MLS and CFL, the city will be dealing with 20+ dates, and they cannot take the same measures they have taken for special events.

The Civic Centre has proven to be in good enough condition to last many years. This means that only part of the facility has to be rebuilt. Why would we consider another location, which requires the whole stadium to be built and we still need to do something with Lansdowne Park?

The Bayview location may be good with respect to transit connections but not nearly for access by car. In order to get out football fans, many fans will want to get there by car. It is also another out of the way place with few if any bars and restaurants nearby.

We have an opportunity now, and the best potential ownership group that we have seen in decades.

We can wait 10 years for a transit plan and by that time our opportunity will be long past.

The time is now and Lansdowne is the right location.

[c_speed3108]

The key thing to remember when comparing Lansdowne to other stadium sites is that Lansdowne has 3/4 of a stadium, the other sites do not. This is one of the major reasons why Lansdowne makes the most sense.

As for renovation costs it will certainly not be anywhere near 100 million. A new stadium would not cost that much. Most of the 100 million was for other non-football things at the site such as the space for the farmers market, other retail, the hotel etc.

The city only had about 10 million to replace the lower south. The rest is just renovations not rebuilding.

------------------------
The other note football in Canada:

It is much bigger than you think. If you study all levels from the little kids playing right up to pro you see many signs of popularity. It has always been very popular in the west and still is. It is also become massively popular in Quebec as of late (look at the University and CEGEP systems).

Even right here in Ottawa, Carleton University is currently looking into the details of getting a team going again. The Ottawa minor football is I believe the largest in Canada.

The only real threat to it is the NFL in Toronto, but that will not happen. Here is why?

For an NFL team you need a stadium that holds at least 70-80 thousand people now. The skydome only holds about 55000 for football. The NFL is trying an experiment in Toronto to see if it can charge enough for tickets to make up the difference. Unfortunately it is not working too well. The last game they had, did not sell out and they even resorted to handing out some tickets free to make it not looks so bad. Consequently, Toronto is not getting a team.

[c_speed3108]

Come on council...don't screw this up...please

Grey-t day for Ottawa

Ottawa Sun, Fri, November 21, 2008

Grey Cup here in 2014 ... now the ball's in council's hands


The 2014 Grey Cup game will be played in Ottawa, Sun Media has learned.

But first, of course, the national's capital has to have a team in the CFL.

"When we got our conditional franchise, we were awarded a Grey Cup," confirmed Jeff Hunt, frontman of the Ottawa group that has until March to complete its mission of bringing pro football back to Lansdowne Park. "I think with everything that happened around then, the Grey Cup component might have been overlooked.

"That was a key element when we were in negotiations with the CFL. We thought having the ability to host a Grey Cup was an important piece of the puzzle."

No question about that. The week-long "great Canadian party" not only provides an economic spinoff for the hosting city, but the event is also a substantial money maker for the host team.


"The Grey Cup, because of the way it's done by the CFL, is extremely important for a team's financial success," said Hunt. "I know it can really have a significant impact on your bottom line the year you host it.

"It's a big deal financially, certainly, and that seems to be the thing a lot of people really focus on. I think it's just a big deal for community pride and for putting a community in the national spotlight, like hosting a Brier or things of that nature.

"It's the pre-eminent annual sporting event in Canada. To me, that's the event to be a part of."

Hunt will be going to Sunday's Grey Cup in Montreal with two of his three partners, John Ruddy and Roger Greenberg. The third partner, William Shenkman, will not be able to attend.

"This will be my 10th or 11th Grey Cup, but the first time I've been at a Grey Cup involved to this extent with the CFL," said Hunt. "We think it's important for us to be there."

On Saturday, the group will meet with the CFL's board of governors to provide an update on its bid to reach an agreement with the city for the necessary redevelopment of Lansdowne Park.

In short?

"Right now we're working with city staff to establish the fundamentals of our relationship," said Hunt, the owner of the Ottawa 67's. "I think early in the New Year they're going to take the pillars of our relationship to city council, hopefully for approval.

"I think we feel things are moving along as well as we would have hoped. We knew this was going to be a significant process, and we're in the middle of it."

Along with work, the group will try to find time for some play. That is what the Grey Cup is about, after all. Hunt said that upon being awarded the 2014 game, he came to the "sobering realization that when we host it, I'll be the ripe old age of 50."

Not a bad way to celebrate hitting the half-century mark, by any means.

'GREAT EVENTS'

"The Grey Cups I've been a part of in Ottawa --1988 and 2005 -- they were great events that were extremely well supported," said Hunt, who is anxious to throw the bash. "Just like when you own a junior team you want to host the Memorial Cup ... Unfortunately there are 60 teams that want to host the Memorial Cup every year. The time between turns can be lengthy.

"The Grey Cup is something you hope can happen in your community once a decade. The idea of being a part of a Grey Cup in 2014 is very exciting. And I think it's the kind of thing that makes this whole project really seem worthwhile."

And give a guy a thirst for more. Not long after the Renegades hosted the Grey Cup, their owners disbanded, leaving Ottawa without a team.

"I'm sure that was not their plan," said Hunt. "Certainly that is not our plan.

"Our plan is to host many Grey Cups, and hopefully even hoist a few."

[AuxTown]

I won't get my hopes up. We have a city council filled with narrow-minded bumkins. I hope they prove me wrong this time though.

[waterloowarrior]

Ken Gray podcast


Philip Bess, one of world’s leading experts on stadium construction, says a revitalized football venue at Lansdowne Park is likely to fit in well in the Glebe. In Ken Gray’s Inner City podcast, Mr. Bess, the director of the University of Notre Dame graduate school of architecture, talks about valuable stadiums and what constitutes a solid neighbourhood

[waterloowarrior]

CFL wants to see movement on Lansdowne


BY DON CAMPBELLJANUARY 16, 2009 12:01 PM


Still hopeful of a CFL return to Ottawa by the 2011 season, CFL commissioner Mark Cohon hopes the next news he hears from Ottawa is a date for a shovel to go into the ground at Lansdowne Park.

The deadline for a conditional expansion franchise for an Ottawa group fronted by Ottawa 67’s owner Jeff Hunt runs out the third week of March, and while an extension would likely be granted, Cohon hopes the concept of the revitalization of Lansdowne Park becomes a reality in the coming weeks.

Cohon, speaking Friday morning to the Ottawa Chamber of Commerce, said a struggling economic climate should not hurt the Ottawa group’s vision of “Lansdowne Live” which includes retail and recreational space around a new world-class stadium.

“I’m not here to pressure the city but I would like to see progress,” said Cohon. “I would like to see shovels in the ground. “This type of (down) economy is a great time to make infrastructure projects work.”

The Ottawa group, which includes Ottawa business giants Roger Greenberg, Bill Shenkman and John Ruddy, is scheduled to pitch its concepts to the full Ottawa City Council Feb. 17.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

[waterloowarrior]

Lansdowne needs a design competition, Doucet insists
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Lansdow...381/story.html

BY JAKE RUPERT, THE OTTAWA CITIZENJANUARY 19, 2009 11:23 AM


OTTAWA • Capital Councillor Clive Doucet is urging the public to voice opposition to the possible “sole sourcing” of the Lansdowne Park redevelopment to a group of local developers.

With a decision point on the proposal for Lansdowne coming soon, Mr. Doucet, whose ward contains the prime city land at Bank Street and the Rideau Canal, is asking people to get themselves organized and to contact their city councillors and the mayor to urge the elected officials to restart a competitive process to determine what is done with the park.

“People should know that if they don’t take this seriously, they will lose (the park),” Mr. Doucet said Monday. “People need to let (the mayor and councillors) know it's unacceptable to give this piece of public land to developers without even looking at other options and not consulting the public on what should be done at the park.”

City council voted to hold a competition to determine the fate of the underused park last year, but that was put on hold when the developers gave the city an unsolicited proposal for the 40-acre site. The developers have won a condition Canadian Football League franchise, and the league has put a deadline for a decision on the issue of March.

City staff are putting the finishing touches on a review of the developers’ proposal and will be making a recommendation to city council in the next few weeks on whether the city should go with it or restart the competition.

[Mille Sabords]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

“People should know that if they don’t take this seriously, they will lose (the park),” Mr. Doucet said Monday. “People need to let (the mayor and councillors) know it's unacceptable to give this piece of public land to developers without even looking at other options and not consulting the public on what should be done at the park.”

My retort: "It's criminal to continue dithering and procrastinating on such a vital piece of the city when we have a threefold opportunity to (1) restore the stadium and get a team back into the CFL; (2) intensift a piece of public land that is NOT A PARK and thus pledge our administration's leadership in the "grow in, not out" principles we keep talking about; (3) STILL have an international designa competition for the MOST IMPORTANT part of Lansdowne, which is the canal-side section that is unconcerned with the CFL/Lansdowne Live proposal. It would be nice if everyone could find a way for us to win on all fronts instead of bickering as usual."

It's much easier to destroy than to build. What will YOU do?