Southeast Valley Development News

[HooverDam]

^And dont you think the Cubs are a big draw that bring people here who pay those hotel and rental car taxes? I sure do. The Cubs may be holding the other teams hostage, but as the Cubs go, so goes the Cactus league. They're far and away the biggest draw and losing them would be devastating, so its unfortunate but I think you just gotta kinda take the bad deal on this one.

[glynnjamin]

If that's the case, let them tax cubs games. Why don't they add an extra dollar to every game at wrigley? Average 30k fans x 81 home games x $1 = about $2.5M per year. Seems to me that would be more fair than this system. If Cubs fans want their team to do better and think that a better training facility (that happens to be 15 miles away from the next closest team) will help them win a WS, then they would be happy to pony up an extra $1 per game. If they want a "Wrigleyville West" concept where they fly from Peoria, IL to Gateway and are surrounded by Cubs-related crap, they should pay for that. I'm tired of the poor teams having to pay to help the rich teams. The Royals already have a hard enough time getting fans to come out, adding $3 to every ticket is not going to encourage them to fly out much less to go to a game.

[shawneriksmith]

"Making this connection is an important step in increasing ridership, opening up east Mesa to people who wouldn’t normally go there, and taking advantage of the important N/S connectivity that Gilbert Rd provides. The City of Mesa will continue to work on funding strategies to make the extension to Gilbert Rd a reality."

I would prefer if light rail was used to connect already heavily-populated areas of the valley instead of opening up places to people who wouldn't normally go to those places. Light rail should focus on connecting the main "downtown" areas of each city or major neighborhood in the Phoenix metro area before extending out to east Mesa...

[mwadswor]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

^And dont you think the Cubs are a big draw that bring people here who pay those hotel and rental car taxes?

That's the argument I hear all the time, and it's complete BS in my opinion. The Cubs are certainly a big draw, and yes a lot of their fans travel. But people don't come to see the Cubs play themselves, they come to see the Cactus LEAGUE. All the teams are important to the league, and if anything, a greater diversity of teams is more important than any one big draw. Let them go and attract 2 cheaper teams from Florida.

If the Cubs are going to demand this much special treatment I vote screw them. Let Florida deal with the pains in the ass, while Arizona can keep attracting more of the lower maintenance teams that won't draw as many fans individually but will draw more fans all together and will ultimately cost much less. The league will be less successful in the short term without the Cubs, but it will be more profitable in the long term. Let's not fool ourselves, we all know that if the Cubs get to tax everyone else for their new stadium, pretty soon every new stadium will be built by taxing everyone else. The big draw for spring training games now is the price, how many extra fees for each individual team do we want to tack on to each ticket?

Let Florida deal with the high maintenance, high expense teams. Arizona may draw fewer fans per team without them, but will ultimately be more profitable without having to deal with the expense and the expensive prescedent. It's time either Arizona or Florida (or any city with any major league team) puts its foot down and stops this ridiculous race to see who can bend over the farthest for major league sports.

If teams start leaving en masse, I'll probably change my mind, but I jus don't see that happening.

[glynnjamin]

At the end of the day, Florida really cannot compete with Arizona. They just can't. It might be nice for teams along the eastern seaboard and for the the Florida teams because it is closer to their home fans...but the reality is that Phoenix is able to host 15 teams within 20 miles of each other. As far as I know, only the Sox & Twins, and Marlins & Cardinals have that sort of advantage in Florida because they share complexes. You can ask any baseball player who has been to both and they will tell you that being able to come to Phoenix, rent a house for a month, and drive themselves to every game (as opposed to riding a bus) is 100 times better. They will also tell you that it is drier here (this year not withstanding) and that the warm days aren't as humid. Not only that but we have better facilities, better fields, and better attendance per team. Florida can pretend that they can compete but the reality is that teams like Detroit, Houston, St Louis, and Minnesota will all start looking at coming here in the future.

I guess the unfortunate reality of that is that we are going to need a lot more money to keep all of these stadiums up to date. Milwaukee is already looking to leave. The Mariners and Padres stadium is starting to show its age and will need renovation. A few years down the road when we need to renovate all of these ballparks, we're going to need to get the money from somewhere. Maybe taxing the tickets and the games isn't such a bad idea...but having the money go to the Cubs alone is just outrageous.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by shawneriksmith

I would prefer if light rail was used to connect already heavily-populated areas of the valley instead of opening up places to people who wouldn't normally go to those places. Light rail should focus on connecting the main "downtown" areas of each city or major neighborhood in the Phoenix metro area before extending out to east Mesa...

Huh? This leg would go right through Downtown Mesa. It would just be silly to end the line right in their downtown as its easier to build a park and ride a bit East of there with all the available surface parking. Plus like I said you want to be able to have the rail hook up w/ the new farmers marker. And the lady was right, having it hit Gilbert Rd is good b/c thats a heavily trafficked N/S route.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

At the end of the day, Florida really cannot compete with Arizona. They just can't. It might be nice for teams along the eastern seaboard and for the the Florida teams because it is closer to their home fans...but the reality is that Phoenix is able to host 15 teams within 20 miles of each other. As far as I know, only the Sox & Twins, and Marlins & Cardinals have that sort of advantage in Florida because they share complexes. You can ask any baseball player who has been to both and they will tell you that being able to come to Phoenix, rent a house for a month, and drive themselves to every game (as opposed to riding a bus) is 100 times better. They will also tell you that it is drier here (this year not withstanding) and that the warm days aren't as humid. Not only that but we have better facilities, better fields, and better attendance per team. Florida can pretend that they can compete but the reality is that teams like Detroit, Houston, St Louis, and Minnesota will all start looking at coming here in the future.

Your reasoning sounds purely based on a biased opinion.

You're bringing weather into this? As if everybody craves the desert climate...last time I checked Florida had 19 million residents calling the swamp home. These are the "boys of summer", you mean to tell me they don't like to sweat?

[HooverDam]

^Drier meaning games are rained out less, thus, its less of a pain in the neck for players. Glynn is right, every player Ive ever heard talk about it vastly prefers the Catcus to Grapefruit league, but I still don't want to lose the Cubs.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Your reasoning sounds purely based on a biased opinion.

These are two indisputable facts, quoted as is:

-Phoenix is able to host 15 teams within 20 miles of each other. As far as I know, only the Sox & Twins, and Marlins & Cardinals have that sort of advantage in Florida because they share complexes.

-Not only that but we have better facilities, better fields, and better attendance per team.

You're bringing weather into this? As if everybody craves the desert climate...last time I checked Florida had 19 million residents calling the swamp home. These are the "boys of summer", you mean to tell me they don't like to sweat?

This is spurious. Spring Training happens here because the whether is better. And the fact that Florida's population is larger is unimportant and an apples to oranges comparison anyways. More people in Phoenix are going to games than in Florida, and that's what matters.

[glynnjamin]

Just a few Cactus League v Grapefruit League stats:

Grapefruit League 2009 16 teams

Yankees - Tampa (10,558)
Phillies - Clearwater (8,353)
Braves - Lake Buena Vista (8,314)
Red Sox - Fort Myers (7,855)
Twins - Fort Myers (7,209)
Tigers - Lakeland (6,946)
Rays - Port Charlotte (6,513)
Cardinals - Jupiter (5,652)
Reds - Sarasota (5,184)
Mets - Port St Lucie (5,136)
Pirates - Bradenton (4,589)
Orioles - Sarasota (4,588)
Blue Jays - Dunedin (4,292)
Marlins - Jupiter (4,102)
Nationals - Viera (3,868)
Astros - Kissimmee (3,666)

259 games; 1,561,873 total attendance; 6,030 average per game


Cactus League 2009 14 teams

Cubs - Mesa (10,690)
Dodgers - Glendale (9,130)
Giants - Scottsdale (8,476)
Mariners - Peoria (6,927)
Dbacks - Tucson (6,738)
White Sox - Glendale (6,119)
Royals - Surprise (5,694)
Indians - Goodyear (5,546)
Angels - Tempe (5,305)
Athletics - Phoenix (5,271)
Rangers - Surprise (5,073)
Brewers - Phoenix (4,839)
Padres - Peoria (4,809)
Rockies - Tucson (4,722)

246 games; 1,578,709 total attendance; 6,418 average per game


Grapefruit League Teams Travel Distance to Next Closest Neighbor 2010

Red Sox - Twins = 0 miles
Twins - Red Sox = 0 miles
Cardinals - Marlins = 0 miles
Marlins - Cardinals = 0 miles
Phillies - Blue Jays = 5.6 miles
Blue Jays - Phillies = 5.6 miles
Braves - Astros = 13 miles
Astros - Braves = 13 miles
Orioles - Pirates = 13.2 miles
Pirates - Orioles - Pirates 13.2 miles
Yankees - Phillies = 20 miles
Rays - Red Sox/Twins = 27.6 miles
Mets - Cardinals/Marlins = 34 miles
Tigers - Yankees = 38 miles
Nationals - Astros = 58 miles


Cactus League Teams Travel Distance to Next Closest Neighbor 2011 assuming completion of Dbacks/Rockies facility on Pima rez

Rangers - Royals = 0 miles
Royals - Rangers = 0 miles
Mariners - Padres = 0 miles
Padres - Mariners = 0 miles
Dodgers - White Sox = 0 miles
White Sox - Dodgers = 0 miles
Reds - Indians = 0 miles
Indians - Reds = 0 miles
Dbacks - Rockies = 0 miles
Rockies - Dbacks = 0 miles
Cubs - Dbacks/Rockies = 4.4 miles
Angels - Athletics = 5.6 miles
Athletics - Dbacks/Rockies = 5.6 miles
Giants - Dbacks/Rockies = 5.6 miles
Brewers - Dodgers/WhiteSox = 13 miles

[glynnjamin]

A few things about the numbers. The Cactus League had the highest single team attendance average, higher total attendance, and higher league average attendance. They did all of this with 14 teams, fewer games, and without the mighty Red Sox & Yankees.

Also, I obviously overstated my estimation before I did the work (I assumed there was more than 20 miles between stadiums in FL) but the fact remains that the Brewers have the longest commute to their nearest neighbor (that location offers two different teams) at 13 miles which is below the average (16.08 miles) of the nearest neighbor in Florida. AZ's average is 2.28 miles.

[Leo the Dog]

Why then is AZ paranoid about losing teams to FL then? If our facilities are so much better than our competition, why is it we feel the need to constantly build new parks (or remodel) for the teams located here?

[mwadswor]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Why then is AZ paranoid about losing teams to FL then? If our facilities are so much better than our competition, why is it we feel the need to constantly build new parks (or remodel) for the teams located here?

We shouldn't, that's my point. If teams start leaving en masse, I'll change my mind, but I don't see that happening. I see no problem with continuing to use the existing taxes and fees to upgrade ballparks or even build new ones to keep teams here, but there's no reason to keep raising fees higher and higher to attract teams who aren't going to move anyway. We may lose the Cubs to Florida, but teams move all the time, it's not the end of the world. The rest of the cactus league teams probably have a better idea than any of us what the cactus league needs to be successful, and so far I haven't heard of any of them coming out in support of the cubs plan. The other teams think we can survive without the cubs and I do too.

My original question seems to have gotten lost though... mostly because I worded it poorly Why is the state getting involved? I can see why a government agency might need to be involved in raising taxes on rental cars or hotels or other touristy things, but why are does the state government need to be involved to raise fees on ticket prices at cactus league games? If the cactus league thinks that it's important to keep a team, shouldn't the teams themselves have the ability to put a surcharge on their tickets to raise funding for the cubs? I obviously don't mean that the teams that want the cubs should volunteer money to them, but there must be some sort of cactus league governing body with that power isn't there? Let the teams vote on if the cubs are important enough to raise a ticket surcharge on their games, majority wins. Why get the state government involved in something like that unless the cubs and Mesa already know which way all the other teams will vote?

[glynnjamin]

Actually, Florida is not our biggest competition. The threat of an upstart league in Vegas has been looming for years. There are multiple teams that feel like Vegas would be happy to build ballparks and would encourage more fans. Florida hadn't built a single ballpark between 1998 and 2004. There is an argument to be made that the Tampa Bay area could support multiple stadiums and could turn into a Phoenix-like destination. Phoenix didn't used to have all of the teams. At one point teams played in Yuma, Casa Grande, and Tucson. They've all become concentrated around the valley now. The same thing could happen in Florida. There are 6 teams that surround the bay area in what could be considered a similarly sized area to the Valley. If you look at this map Then you'll see that teams on the eastern side of the state are in a significant disadvantage. With the exception of the Marlins/Cardinals (who have a 1998 stadium) and the Braves (who play at Disney World) most of the teams on the eastern side will need new stadiums rather soon. If you were to move, looking at a space near Tampa would make the most sense.

The old school thought was to spread out your teams so that your local fan base wasn't spread too thin. What they didn't realize is that over a million people would be coming down year after year to watch this stuff and that an all-in-one location encourages more fans. Consolidation is inevitable in Florida just as it has been in AZ. If the Mets decide they need a new stadium in Spring Hill, there is little to stop a team like the Brewers from partnering up with them for a two-team stadium. Florida is going to HAVE to build new stadiums to keep the teams that they have. When that happens, they will be able to dangle that carrot in front of any Central Division team. As long as the park's location is close to Tampa, there won't me much of a difference for the team.

I just don't think Florida has the money. They are worse off than we are.

[Leo the Dog]

Again, if AZ Cactus League is far better like you say with the great weather with superior facilities, close proximity to each other then we shouldn't have to worry about "humid" Tampa or Las Vegas or S. Texas etc...

For the record, I'd love to go to Vegas for a game. I think thats a great idea.

[glynnjamin]

I only said it was superior to Florida's existing climate. It is not superior to the bevy of ideas and dreams that people working in Vegas or W.Florida have. Could Cactus League be better? Probably. The ideal facility would have indoor and outdoor facilities for games as well as practice. Would be big enough to support 8 teams and be anchored by a series of hotels, malls, bars, and player housing. You would then have a similar facility in another part of the valley. Both would be connected via rail that would pass through the city and the airport. Fans who stayed in the accompanying hotels would get access to indoor practice facilities.

Think: DisneyWorld of baseball.

[mwadswor]

Revised deal for Cubs is a head-scratcher

The deal to keep the Chicago Cubs in Arizona just keeps getting stranger and stranger. The arm waving against it, larger and larger. I'm ready for someone to throw a temper-tantrum and say he's taking his toys and going home.

A day before the House is expected to vote on the bill, its sponsor, Rep. John McComish of Ahwatukee, has removed the car-rental surcharge. The surcharge on Cactus League tickets remains, and though a press release says it would be "less than half the cost of a spring-training hot dog," opponents are saying the surcharge would be even higher than before -- a full 10 percent instead of the original 8 percent.

I don't get it. It seems the surcharge is the part that has most people -- well, at least, it has every Cactus League team other than the Cubs, a few West Valley mayors and the Major League Baseball commissioner -- upset. So, hey, let's increase it even more?

According to the press release I received (and the Chicago press subsequently reported), the revised bill is expected to raise the same amount of cash as before. But what the Chicago press didn't report is that as some sort of concession, the revision would allow some of the money to be used to repay debts in Tucson on training facilities once the Arizona Diamondbacks and Colorado Rockies -- two of the loudest opponents of the surcharge -- leave for shiny new digs in the Valley.

In a letter to lawmakers, Surprise Mayor Lyn Truitt called it "an Arizona version of the Cornhusker Kickback" -- in reference to the concessions that were made to get votes on the national health-care bill. Funny.

But seriously, how is all this going to be received Thursday at the Statehouse? For all the arm-waving and behind-the-scenes rumbling about people's motivation for arm-waving, no one seems to have a good read on how lawmakers actually feel about the deal. And in all the horse-trading and arm-waving, have we forgotten what the overall point of this exercise was: To keep the Cubs, the cornerstone of the Cactus League, here?

Guess we'll find out soon enough.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blo...Allhands/76325

[HooverDam]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...ylord0505.html

Nashville flood could impact Mesa project

6 comments by Gary Nelson - May. 3, 2010 03:04 PM
The Arizona Republic
Nearly two years after announcing it would build a massive resort and conference center in Mesa, Gaylord Entertainment Co. has yet to wave the green flag because of the economy.

Now massive flooding in downtown Nashville has closed the fabled Gaylord Opryland Resort and threatens to further dent the company's bottom line.


Opryland evacuated about 1,500 guests and employees Sunday night as the Cumberland River lapped at levees designed to withstand a 100-year flood. The guests spent the night in a high school.

Early Monday the levees were breached, causing major damage to the hotel. Hotel spokeswoman Kim Keelor was quoted by The Associated Press as saying the building had "significant water" inside and would remain closed indefinitely.

The company said in a press release it is too soon to even assess the damage. The company said it has insurance to cover business interruptions and flood damage up to $50 million.

One immediate headache: Determining what to do with conventions already booked at Opryland for the next several months. The company relies on a system of rotating conventions and groups among its four major properties in Nashville, Texas, Florida and the Washington, D.C., area, and hopes its property in Mesa will become part of that system.

Gaylord canceled a conference call, previously scheduled for Tuesday, to discuss its first-quarter earnings report so it could focus on caring for the displaced guests and deal with other problems caused by Opryland's closure.

Gaylord's press release said the company would not issue a previously expected financial forecast for the remainder of 2010. It added: "It is likely that financial results for Gaylord Opryland and thus Gaylord Entertainment will be impacted for the next two quarters" by the flooding.

The company did release its first-quarter report on Monday afternoon, saying it lost $1.9 million on revenue of $217 million. Revenue grew by about $4.4 million over the same quarter in 2009.

Regarding the Mesa project, Gaylord echoed language in an earlier earnings report and said it "remains in the very early stages of planning, and specific details of the property and budget have not yet been determined. The company anticipates that any expenditure associated with the project will not have a material impact in the near term."

According to its development agreement with Mesa, Gaylord must break ground by Dec. 31, 2011.

After a similarly ambitious development project, the Waveyard in northwest Mesa, ran afoul of the financial meltdown, Mesa negotiated an extension with its developers. But Waveyard remains in financial limbo.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...#ixzz0mukIuqzF

[HooverDam]

http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...rporation.html

Organizers push for San Tan Valley's incorporation

2 comments by Lindsey Collom - May. 7, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Nearly five years after a failed attempt at incorporation, residents of a community beyond the southeastern fringes of the Valley are giving it another try.

Petitions are circulating to put San Tan Valley incorporation to a public vote, possibly in November. If it succeeds, the referendum would create Pinal County's largest city.


Organizers say the bid for incorporation looks different this time.

The area now has a name, the result of an unofficial vote last June. And the population has grown to about 80,000, more than doubling in size since the last incorporation effort in 2005.

San Tan Valley is a sprawling bedroom community bordering southeast Queen Creek with giant subdivisions named Johnson Ranch, San Tan Heights and Copper Basin.

Since 2003, young families priced out of the Valley's housing market have flocked to the once-rural land along Hunt Highway near the San Tan Mountains.

At a recent incorporation forum, supporters said they wanted more local control and amenities that Pinal County doesn't provide, including more police patrols and parks and recreation.

The most vocal opponents were retirees who don't want to pay additional taxes for services they won't use.

The median age in San Tan Valley is about 30, which could be a factor in the next referendum.

Randall Locker, chairman of the Citizens for San Tan Valley Incorporation, a political-action committee trying to get the issue on the ballot, said residents of all ages have supported incorporation.

"Certainly the younger-aged groups are concerned with building a quality of life for their family where they can work, worship, serve and play in an organized community," Locker said in a recent e-mail.

Committee members have gathered about 1,000 signatures so far, Locker said; the goal is at least 3,000 valid signatures from registered voters.

An insufficient number of valid signatures ended back-to-back incorporation attempts in 2004 and 2005. The efforts pitted neighbor against neighbor and tensions were palpable, particularly from residents who wanted to maintain a rural lifestyle.

Quality of life is a common issue when communities start talking about incorporation, according to the League of Arizona Cities and Towns.

But the greatest contention, the league says, develops over the idea of dipping into people's wallets.

The potential for additional taxes riled developer George Johnson, who brought the master-planned community of Johnson Ranch to Pinal and owns the local utility. Since late 2009, Johnson Utilities customers have received anti-incorporation mailers with the monthly water bill.

"I think it's important for the residents of this area to know the true costs of incorporation," Johnson said. "I no longer own property, nor will I benefit if the incorporation passes or fails, but this area of Pinal County is very important to me."

His letters often include attacks on Supervisor Bryan Martyn, whose district includes San Tan Valley and who is an incorporation supporter.

Johnson has accused the supervisor of skewing cost estimates and pushing for incorporation to get the community off the county's bankroll.

Martyn insists he just wants citizens to have a say.

"I think it's a good idea, in the best interest in the long term," Martyn said. "I want every household to decide. Johnson is saying Martyn is shoving his hand down your throats. They're begging for parks and recreation, begging for libraries, and I'm giving them a tool."

He helped devise a sample annual budget of nearly $28 million for an incorporated city, including costs for public safety, road maintenance, planning and development, and other services.

Some have questioned how the city could run on a budget that is one-eighth of those in comparably sized cities. For example, Avondale, which has about 76,000 residents, projects spending $224.2 million this fiscal year.

Martyn said San Tan Valley cannot be compared to more established communities. It's like a new college graduate, he said: broke but full of promise.

"This budget is just a proposal," Martyn said. "It's not sexy. It's got four wheels and an engine and will get you to work every day. You don't need to spend money on a brand-new pickup truck when all you need is to get going down the road."



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...#ixzz0nEfyHDfM

Welp that sounds like a pretty shit-tastic place to live but maybe if they incorporate at least we'll have a name to use when making fun of it.

[Leo the Dog]

I think its a good thing for San Tan to incorporate. If anything, metro Phx cities are too large, this will at least take a huge chunk of available land away from Gilbert, QC, possibly AJ and Mesa, forcing those cities to develop wisely with what land is still available within their city limits. ie Tempe.