ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[RobMidtowner]

On a side note, there is an article in ABC about a new service being offered called a "helitaxi" that for $125 will take you from Alpharetta to the airport in 15 minutes. I think that's pretty neat and is somewhat related to our conversation. Alpharetta to the airport has got to be one of the worst commutes in the country. Maybe dante is the one who started this business and that's why he's supporting keeping traffic... . Of course I'm just kidding dante.

[WSUSOM]

Originally Posted by Andrea

What's wrong with simply taking Northside Drive straight through West End and continuing right down Lee Street/Main Street to College Park? That's the way we used to go to Woodward.

Better yet, what about taking the train from either the Lenox, Buckhead or Lindbergh stations directly to the College Park station?

And actually, if you do want to take I-285, it's not much difference at all from taking the connector through downtown.

What a great point Andrea, the problem with Atlanta is that the majority of the people of its metro aren't natives of the region so they don't know about the surface streets that do exist that are relatively under used. I try not to use the connector or 285 but then again I'm a 3rd generation Atlanta native.

[Pillsbury Doughboy]

I agree with Wsusom and Andrea. I was in Atlanta this past weekend and went and did the tourist thing downtown. We ended up on top of the Westin at about 5 o'clock on Friday evening. The Connector was stopped both ways for as far as you could see---the surface streets, however, were almost empty. It was strange. I would've at least expected Peachtree to be clogged, but it was fairly light. It was such a weird stark difference seeing the Connector with about 16 or so lanes of traffic stopped, not moving at all, and then seeing the surface streets with only light to moderate traffic.

[AubieTurtle]

What a great point Andrea, the problem with Atlanta is that the majority of the people of its metro aren't natives of the region so they don't know about the surface streets that do exist that are relatively under used.

...or they just don't bother to learn. I've only been here for a bit over six years but I know the surface streets pretty well. And when I don't, I take the time to learn. A couple of years ago I worked at Piedmont Center in Buckhead and lived in downtown. The commute down Lenox Road, GA400 and the connector was terrible. It took me about ten minutes with a map to find a back way over the Northside Drive and used that to get home. It was a much nicer drive and even with traffic lights was much faster. I shared the route with several other people who worked there but they weren't interested because they were scared they would get lost. It was a great alternative not only for those living downtown but for most of Midtown and even those living east or west of the city because it connected to I20 without going down the connector and the Grady Curve.

As for Dante's statement that there isn't a street grid,you're just plain wrong. Downtown and Midtown, which is what everyone is pretty much talking about, both have grids. The biggest flaws in the grid are where it has been destroyed by the connector. Why is there a Williams Street in Midtown that is totally unconnected to the Williams Street in Downtown? Because the connector was rammed through the connection. Why does Spring Street run parallel to itself near the Grady Curve? Because the connector split it in two.
Why are there so few connections between Midtown and "West Midtown"? If you answered "the connector" you win ten points.

Certainly other damage has been done to the grid, and as Terminus pointed out, these tend to be large institutional interests. Tech has cut themselves off in many ways from the rest of the city. Many streets that should go straight through end in parking lots or at a building. Given the history of that part of town, I certainly can understand why Tech took a fortress mentality to their campus. The TBS campus also interupts the grid, though I'm not sure the grid ever really existed there.

North of Brookwood, yes, there isn't a real grid and south of I20 you get into the railroad and industrial yards. But inbetween does have a perfectly fine road grid that could have (and still could be) developed into a local transportation system for moving vehicles within that district. But it can't and shouldn't serve as a way for people from Delaware to get to the beach or for folks in Lawrenceville to get to the airport. 285 is designed just for that purpose and should be used as such.

[dante2308]

Except Buckhead is nearer to 400 than 75, MARTA isn't very useful more than a few blocks away from the station especially if you are carrying something or elderly, and the the time it would take to use surface streets makes it infeasible to take Northside. That 285 route has got to add at least 5-10 miles of commute distance.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by AubieTurtle

...or they just don't bother to learn. I've only been here for a bit over six years but I know the surface streets pretty well. And when I don't, I take the time to learn. A couple of years ago I worked at Piedmont Center in Buckhead and lived in downtown. The commute down Lenox Road, GA400 and the connector was terrible. It took me about ten minutes with a map to find a back way over the Northside Drive and used that to get home. It was a much nicer drive and even with traffic lights was much faster. I shared the route with several other people who worked there but they weren't interested because they were scared they would get lost. It was a great alternative not only for those living downtown but for most of Midtown and even those living east or west of the city because it connected to I20 without going down the connector and the Grady Curve.

As for Dante's statement that there isn't a street grid,you're just plain wrong. Downtown and Midtown, which is what everyone is pretty much talking about, both have grids.

My God. Please stop misquoting me. I said it doesn't have an extensive grid network and especially not one usefully large enough to take the burden of a 14-18 lane highway. Neither is 285 for that matter.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

On a side note, there is an article in ABC about a new service being offered called a "helitaxi" that for $125 will take you from Alpharetta to the airport in 15 minutes. I think that's pretty neat and is somewhat related to our conversation. Alpharetta to the airport has got to be one of the worst commutes in the country. Maybe dante is the one who started this business and that's why he's supporting keeping traffic... . Of course I'm just kidding dante.

Actually I have stock in helitaxi. Our motto is "If you're too stupid to get to the airport, we'll be glad to take your money from you, you rich bastard."

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by WSUSOM

What a great point Andrea, the problem with Atlanta is that the majority of the people of its metro aren't natives of the region so they don't know about the surface streets that do exist that are relatively under used. I try not to use the connector or 285 but then again I'm a 3rd generation Atlanta native.

I think that's a factor, WSUSOM. I used to date someone who wasn't from around here and he took the interstates almost everywhere we went, no matter how circuitous or time consuming a route that might be. It drove me crazy. Being the charming and agreeable person that I am, of course, I rarely said anything but there were times when -- well, no need to go there, but suffice to say that you can almost always do significantly better on the streets than on the freeways.

This is true even in the twisty-turny north, east and west sides of the city. While there is no grid as such, there is still good connectivity in these areas. When traffic slows down one way, you almost always have options to move around the delays fairly quickly. It wouldn't take much to upgrade the surface streets and intersections within the city limits to a truly first class system.

Taking the time to learn how to take advantage of the city streets is somewhat akin to energy conservation. Consider how much you gain simply by learning to use and conserve the very significant transportation resources we already have. It's rarely necessary to get on interstates within the city limits, or really even within I-285.

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by Andrea

It's a 2-3 hour nightmare twice a day, and isn't a whole lot better the rest of the time.

No, it's not! While the Connector might be very crowded and move slowly for 2-3 hours at a time, it doesn't take any one person 2-3 hours to use it. Some might see a clogged freeway and have the mistaken impression that every one of those cars sits there for the entire rush hour, but that's not the case. I am a regular user of the Downtown Connector, the Perimeter, and all four major freeways, often including rush hours. Even when "crawling" through Downtown at between 15-35 mph, the Connector's really not that bad -- and it's a helluva lot faster than any surface streets would be. And for most of the time, the Downtown Connector flows like a stream.

That said, there is no question that Atlanta's surface streets need significant upgrading to better handle the short trips for which they were intended, and at which they excel. Surface streets and freeways play separate roles; each complements the other, but neither could adequately accomplish both.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Except Buckhead is nearer to 400 than 75, MARTA isn't very useful more than a few blocks away from the station especially if you are carrying something or elderly, and the the time it would take to use surface streets makes it infeasible to take Northside. That 285 route has got to add at least 5-10 miles of commute distance.

That's actually not correct. Granted, if you're traveling on MARTA, you may need to transfer to a bus if you're going beyond downtown College Park but the system is pretty extensive.

The route I've suggested down Northside Drive to Main Street is not unfeasible at all -- I've done it many times and it's clearly better than trying to creep along on the freeway. It's several miles shorter and the traffic moves briskly.

And the I-285 route is not significantly longer -- I'd say 2 or 3 miles further at most, less than that if you take the Buckhead Loop.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

Even when "crawling" through Downtown at between 15-35 mph, the Connector's really not that bad -- and it's a helluva lot faster than any surface streets would be.

We'd have to disagree on that. I've tried it both ways and the surface streets are vastly superior, at least if you are coming from Buckhead, East Lake, Cascade, Druid Hills or Virginia-Highland.

[AubieTurtle]

Originally Posted by dante2308

My God. Please stop misquoting me. I said it doesn't have an extensive grid network and especially not one usefully large enough to take the burden of a 14-18 lane highway. Neither is 285 for that matter.

My God. Please stop avoiding the subject. How many times have posters tried to get it through your head that there is no reason why Downtown and Midtown should have a 14-18 lane highway shoved through it? You've tried many times to claim that most of the traffic is all headed into the neighborhood and you've been refuted over and over. The grid in Midtown and Downtown can't handle the load of traffic only because the connector has destroyed the required connectivity in the grid and because traffic from the connector backs up into the city streets. Money that could have been spent on improved connectivity where needed has instead been thrown down into the connector where it has done absolutely nothing except create an even bigger mess than existed before. Of course this point has been made here over and over again by many but MY GOD, you just don't care. You want your megahighway no matter how you have to twist things to make it fit. Thankfully we have people like Andrea who have lived here for decades (probably before you were even born) and will be here for decades to come after you've moved on to some other cartopia where you can lust after more lanes of congested traffic. I find it funny that the highway lovers want to tell someone who has lived here for decades, raised her children here, and been a supporter of the city through thick and thin that she should move somewhere else. You're certainly entitled to your "more lanes of traffic at all costs" opinion but have some respect for the actual facts and history posted by those who have been here longer than you (and I'm not talking about myself) and have a clue as to how things developed and what the connector did to the city.

[RobMidtowner]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

No, it's not! While the Connector might be very crowded and move slowly for 2-3 hours at a time, it doesn't take any one person 2-3 hours to use it. Some might see a clogged freeway and have the mistaken impression that every one of those cars sits there for the entire rush hour, but that's not the case. I am a regular user of the Downtown Connector, the Perimeter, and all four major freeways, often including rush hours. Even when "crawling" through Downtown at between 15-35 mph, the Connector's really not that bad -- and it's a helluva lot faster than any surface streets would be. And for most of the time, the Downtown Connector flows like a stream.

MarketsWork, the point is that the connector on average causes enough delay to operate at an insufficient level of service and from an engineering standpoint, that means it needs to be improved. This isn't my opinion, this is from standards set by FHWA and AASHTO. There are several studies to back this up, just consult the GRTA and ARC websites and you'll see. The connector is ranked as the highest priority project in the region because it's the most congested interstate in the region (go here: http://www.atlantaregional.com/cps/r...5_ENU_HTML.htm and click on "Task 2: Congested Facilities Prioritization"). Maybe you're one of the lucky ones who can slip through relatively easy, but as a whole the interstate is the most congested highway in Atlanta. Maybe it doesn't seem that bad to some of us because we're just so jaded to being in bad traffic that our standards are lowered, but interstates are not supposed to operate this badly according to FHWA and AASHTO. And aside from what we may feel about traffic etc., there is more important reasons to improve this (i.e. for emergency evacuation purposes, air quality mitigation, energy conservation, etc.)

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by AubieTurtle

My God. Please stop avoiding the subject. How many times have posters tried to get it through your head that there is no reason why Downtown and Midtown should have a 14-18 lane highway shoved through it? You've tried many times to claim that most of the traffic is all headed into the neighborhood and you've been refuted over and over. The grid in Midtown and Downtown can't handle the load of traffic only because the connector has destroyed the required connectivity in the grid and because traffic from the connector backs up into the city streets. Money that could have been spent on improved connectivity where needed has instead been thrown down into the connector where it has done absolutely nothing except create an even bigger mess than existed before. Of course this point has been made here over and over again by many but MY GOD, you just don't care. You want your megahighway no matter how you have to twist things to make it fit. Thankfully we have people like Andrea who have lived here for decades (probably before you were even born) and will be here for decades to come after you've moved on to some other cartopia where you can lust after more lanes of congested traffic. I find it funny that the highway lovers want to tell someone who has lived here for decades, raised her children here, and been a supporter of the city through thick and thin that she should move somewhere else. You're certainly entitled to your "more lanes of traffic at all costs" opinion but have some respect for the actual facts and history posted by those who have been here longer than you (and I'm not talking about myself) and have a clue as to how things developed and what the connector did to the city.

Aubie, you already lost credibility for me when you assumed I was a highway-loving suburbanite when in fact I'm right now living about 5 minutes walk from the connector. If your argument now is that age somehow always makes a person right, then I won't even attempt to retort.

I have already made my points and if you think the connector did "nothing except create an even bigger mess than existed before" then we aren't living in the same reality and conversation becomes useless. Amazing really that supporting anything less than the destruction of the connector makes me "lust" for cars, but unreasonable comments like that created this argument in the first place didn't it?

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

MarketsWork, the point is that the connector on average causes enough delay to operate at an insufficient level of service and from an engineering standpoint, that means it needs to be improved.

I understand your point, and your argument. I just don't think the sky is falling as some seem to believe. I certainly don't think the Connector is paradise, and agree that the surface streets must be improved drastically. But I also believe that the two modes are complementary and that both are necessary. It would be ludicrous to even think of doing away with either.

[Fiorenza]

Many things in history should have probably been done differently, but there's no sense in trying to turn back the clock. If funds had been available, I would have liked to see the connector built as a viaduct over the railroad tracks west of downtown/midtown, with 85 following the tracks just north of Atlantic Station, and 75 picking up the tracks just south of Vinings. I would have liked to see one additional freeway built west from the connector through Paulding County and on to Huntsville and Memphis. That being said, I totally agree with Andrea's position that we should try to get folks off the connector and on to surface streets. With widening, street improvements and synchronized traffic signals, three or four north-south routes would be very attractive alternatives, together with three east-west thoroughfares -- obviously Northside-Main St., Juniper-Piedmont; Druid Hills-Moreland; Ponce-North-Hollowell; Memorial-MLK; and something I would propose along the lines of an extension of University Ave. west to 285 that enhance and support the Beltline in that area.

In my opinion, this is where the street improvement money should be spent in the next few years. Make these into signature avenues, maybe with BRT stops but with the emphasis on options for alternative routing to bring attractive connectivity as well as to help relieve the expressways.

[AtlMidtowner]

I will make a bet that all of those against freeways on this forum have a limited lifestlye that have no real need to enter in the real commercial activity of Atlanta or that they emotionally are afraid of entering a highway with 4 to 8 lanes of packed traffic moving 40-80mph. Every city in the USA, including those cities mentioned by any anti-highway forumers such as Detroit, WashingtonDC, SanFran, NYC and Chicago all have limited access highways (not just interstates) right into the downtown areas. It is totally untrue that these cities do not have highways to the center....I have not only used these highways in my life, but now you can even see them on mapquest. I absolutely loved the convenience on my trip to DC driving almost directly to the Potomac, or taking a taxi from LaGuardia directly to lower Manhattan on limited access highways, or driving to my brother at the University of Chicago almost exclusively on highways....

I will also make a bet that those actually involved in Atlanta's commerce not only wholeheartedly support quick access to all points in the city via limited access highways, but also would support more light rail and public transportation for employees. When I lease out office space ( currently have just under 100 office tenants), the main questions are the following: cost, office layout, building appearance and neighborhood, accessbility to highway, accessbility to public transportation. Those are unquestionably top 5 factors of leasability of office space........

Dorey's CLC maps every single office building in Atlanta, and it will be VERY obvious that succesful office buildings and office parks are located near easy access points from limited access highways (within 1.5 miles of an exit).

Even Atlantic Station never would have been built without the 17th Street Bridge and ramp.

(On another note, I drive home from Marietta/Cumberland area to 14th STreet every day. It takes me about 11 minutes, and then another 10 minutes on the surface streets from the 14th street bridge to my condo. Now if I took Cobb Parkway to Northside Drive to 14th STreet, which I have taken me before, the trip would take me about 45 minutes, somtimes even more, as Cobb Parkway, Northside Drive, Huff Drive and Howell Mill areas are living nightware during traffic times. These suggestions to take surface streets simply do not come from people that actually have used the surface streets during.)
If the congestion on the 2 or 3 miles downtown connector slows to 20 miles per hour, which it actually rarely does, then the users are only losing a less than 3 to 4 minutes driving time!! If you take surface streets, each red light will last anywhere from 30 seconds to one minute!! As I stated on a previous post, it takes about 1.5 hours during low traffic time to travel on surface streets from Vinings to Lilburn, but about 23 minutes on the highways.....there is no real intelligent debate, the limited access highways system is a real asset to continue economic prosperity of Atlanta. Of course it is not perfect.......

I am just shocked that I actually have agreed with MarketsWork on something......LOL
I am also shocked that people claiming to be intelligent actually think ridding the city of limited access highways would improve traffic.

If we want all the proposed highrises in downtown and midtown to be cancelled, shut down the connector!! (Lets actually have someone interview Jim Borders, Tom Cousins, Mark Randall, Donald Trump and other developer on their opininions on development and limited access highways in the Atlanta market).

Maybe a compromise would be to turn the connector into a lake, and redirect the highway over Piedmont by I-85 (getting ridding of the strip clubs) , then over Monroe and Boulevard (getting rid of the highest crime area in Atlanta) and then back to the current connector south of the downtown city area......LOL Downtown and Midtown would have a beautiful Lake, and Virginia Highlands wont have to worry about the Beltline.....LOL

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

I will make a bet that all of those against freeways on this forum have a limited lifestlye that have no real need to enter in the real commercial activity of Atlanta or that they emotionally are afraid of entering a highway with 4 to 8 lanes of packed traffic moving 40-80mph.

How much are you betting?

[joey]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

I will make a bet that all of those against freeways on this forum have a limited lifestlye that have no real need to enter in the real commercial activity of Atlanta or that they emotionally are afraid of entering a highway with 4 to 8 lanes of packed traffic moving 40-80mph.

This is really patronizing, and I never attempted to patronize you. I got a certain thrill from driving 90 mph on the Connector -- I assure you I was never the least scared. Well, that's not exactly true; when I first came through Atlanta when I was almost 16 and on my learners' permit, I was scared shitless by driving on the Connector around 8pm, having been used to more conventional speeds back home.

That being said, I think you're way off on your assumption.

I used the Connector semi-frequently while I was in Atlanta (though I more often avoided its traffic by taking W. Peachtree up to the Buford Highway connector) and still was frustrated by how it cut through the city.

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

Every city in the USA, including those cities mentioned by any anti-highway forumers such as Detroit, WashingtonDC, SanFran, NYC and Chicago all have limited access highways (not just interstates) right into the downtown areas. It is totally untrue that these cities do not have highways to the center....I have not only used these highways in my life, but now you can even see them on mapquest. I absolutely loved the convenience on my trip to DC driving almost directly to the Potomac, or taking a taxi from LaGuardia directly to lower Manhattan on limited access highways, or driving to my brother at the University of Chicago almost exclusively on highways....

Right, but look more carefully at those maps of expressways and cities. Manhattan doesn't have a single expressway cutting across the island: the FDR skirts the eastern edge (though I don't particularly like this one either), and I-495 stops and starts at the edge. In DC, the expressways, for the most part, stop at or skirt the edges of the city. I can't speak of the others from experience, but in DC and Manhattan, the expressways take you to the city, not through the city. The Potomac is the edge of Washington, not the center, just as Brookwood may be considered the northern edge of Atlanta's urban core.

The system a number of us would have advocated in Atlanta (were we able to travel back in time in order for it be done differently, given hindsight) would replicate this model: expressways to Midtown/Downtown, but none through it.

I assure you that you can't take a taxi from LaGuardia to Times Square entirely on expressways. The last two miles of your journey were on arterial streets. Likewise, if the Connector were eliminated as suggested before, you could still take a taxi from the airport on expressways to Atlanta. You'd merely get off around Memorial Drive and take arterial roads for the last 1/2-mile of your journey.

[Chris Creech]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

I will make a bet that all of those against freeways on this forum have a limited lifestlye that have no real need to enter in the real commercial activity of Atlanta or that they emotionally are afraid of entering a highway with 4 to 8 lanes of packed traffic moving 40-80mph.

OMG - did we just get called a bunch of losers?

I for one drive the connector often, and have never had to get on the short bus to do it.