Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[240glt]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Where is this $2.5 billion investment? At most, it's a $1.5 billion in which most of the space would have been built anyways. There's a demand for residential units in Edmonton. They probably wouldn't have been built in such a short time frame however, it's risky of you guys to draw conclusions this early that this development will increase demand for urban living increasing tax revenue over what would have come naturally. There's a lot of questions that could be asked over the CofE leasing the first tower. It looks good for the Ice District CRL but, was it really a great decision for the rest of downtown that had plenty of space available?

There are a lot of significant assumptions, lots of cheerleading and boosterism going on here for sure. How it will flesh out in the end is still yet to be seen.

I agree that some of the figures tossed around in the booster peice seem rather spurious

[Coldrsx]

This report. Back half.

http://www.edmontondowntown.com/about.php?sid=83

[Calgarian]

The Edmonton and Calgary arenas and the revitalization associated with both are very different scenarios, too bad CSEC don't realize that. Starting to really dislike the Flames ownership group, they are playing very dirty with this, now it's an election issue!

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The Edmonton and Calgary arenas and the revitalization associated with both are very different scenarios, too bad CSEC don't realize that. Starting to really dislike the Flames ownership group, they are playing very dirty with this, now it's an election issue!

So it should be.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by rotten42

So it should be.

No it shouldn't be an election issue, the Flames are trying to get people to vote using emotion rather than logic, and people need to vote with their head!

[Coldrsx]

No... and yes, some development would have still occurred, but I am tell you firsthand that it accelerated development significantly and redirected development/growth/investment into the core. Multiple significant developments and smaller ones decided to go Downtown and or ahead because of Rogers Place and the 2.5-3mil people it brings Downtown.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

No... and yes, some development would have still occurred, but I am tell you firsthand that it accelerated development significantly and redirected development/growth/investment into the core. Multiple significant developments and smaller ones decided to go Downtown and or ahead because of Rogers Place and the 2.5-3mil people it brings Downtown.

You don't need to tell me firsthand. I already stated I believe it accelerated development. I'm not convinced that it'll create additional demand for urban living above what would naturally occur. We'll see if development continues or takes a pause in a few years time from an oversupply brought on by this accelerated development.

Sure. An arena attracts new business but, why, are you concluding the Oilers would have been stuck to play out of Northlands in perpetuity or that a new arena wouldn't have been built in or around downtown without your tax dollars at work? (and all future tax revenue goes into the city coffers/reducing the mill rate for everyone instead of repayment)

Same with the 2.5 billion number. It just doesn't add up but, people like don't even question it.

[Calgarian]

Don't forget, a relocation fee is now $200 million, so the Flames aren't going anywhere!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Don't forget, a relocation fee is now $200 million, so the Flames aren't going anywhere!

The Flames won't be moving anywhere anyway. Seattle will be expansion. If the Pens could play in Melon and the Wings in Joe Louis then the Flames can play in Saddledome for another 10-15 years.

The NHL has a track record of ensuring teams stay in their respective markets. Calgary won't be any different. This is very obvious negotiating tactics by ownership.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Flames won't be moving anywhere anyway. Seattle will be expansion. If the Pens could play in Melon and the Wings in Joe Louis then the Flames can play in Saddledome for another 10-15 years.

Excited for a team in Seattle actually, natural rival for the Canucks and it will even out the conferences.

What happens to the Thunderbirds while Key Arena is gutted and massively rebuilt? didn't see anything regarding them in the articles.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

What happens to the Thunderbirds while Key Arena is gutted and massively rebuilt? didn't see anything regarding them in the articles.

The Thunderbirds moved out in 2008. They play out of the Showare Center in Kent.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Thunderbirds moved out in 2008. They play out of the Showare Center in Kent.

haha, well there you go! shows how close I follow the W!

[240glt]

^ As a former community league director and stakeholder in the area, from all the meetings and surveys and focus groups that were conducted, the overwhelming majority of Edmontonians don't want to see the site sit fallow. Kansas City is a shining example of what not to do, and so you'll see a major push to have the building demo'd as soon as possible.

They're going to parcel up the property, the EEDC will take control of the Expo Centre which isn't even 10 years old and a really nice facility, but both the old racetrack and coliseum's fate is the next question. I think without a doubt, the racetrack will be razed and the whole south lands will be reverted back to housing, as it's close to LRT, lots of amenities and one of Edmonton's oldest and nicest parks. The coliseum lands are a little tougher because it's a triangle bordered by a major roadway, the LRT tracks and a roadway underpass. Just west of there is a mix of older homes in need of demolition, quite a few infill developments and some big parking lots.

A lot of companies are moving towards a campus style work environment, that might be the best thing to try and attract interest. Or a big multi-sheet arena complex that will fill the need for ice sheets in the city, as they're planning on shutting a few other sheets in the downtown area down soon as well

For Northlands itself, they're apparently going to try and refocus on the agricultural base it started with, which may not be such a bad idea. They already run a commercial urban farm and have lots of agricultural programs. It would be a shame to see Northlands disappear completely as it is a historic component of Edmonton, but we like to destroy historic stuff around here so I wouldn't be surprised if it's just quietly folded up over the next while

[240glt]

^^ Five years, then who knows.

^ Problem here is I don't think there's a market for two big arenas, and the arena that's there has always been one of the primary problems with that neighborhood, as it's surrounded by vast fields of parking, devoid of life when there wasn't something going on there, and not being a "destination" area folks in Edmonton just don't give a shit about it. Just letting it rot there the cheapest and easiest thing to do but the city is determined not to do that, therefore I predict demolition within two years

[O-tacular]

A great article from The Hockey News about the Calgary arena:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...-his-own-arena

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Don't forget, a relocation fee is now $200 million, so the Flames aren't going anywhere!

Way cheaper than the half billion dollar expansion fee that Seattle will eventually pay to take the 32nd spot in the NHL that is being saved for them

[240glt]

Economists see little payoff for cities that subsidize pro sports facilities

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...407/story.html

It'll be years before we actually know if Edmonton's deal paid off. We already know it came at a huge cost with some shady back room deals, is it worth it ?

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Economists see little payoff for cities that subsidize pro sports facilities

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...407/story.html

It'll be years before we actually know if Edmonton's deal paid off. We already know it came at a huge cost with some shady back room deals, is it worth it ?

Yes, it was worth it.

Also, please provide the details of the "shady back room deals".

[speedog]

Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON

Yes, it was worth it.

Also, please provide the details of the "shady back room deals".

Who provided the up front funding for the ticket levy portion which will be paid back over a couple of decades as well as the Oilers' owner's portion that'll be paid back in lease payments over the next couple of decades as well?

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Economists see little payoff for cities that subsidize pro sports facilities

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...407/story.html

It'll be years before we actually know if Edmonton's deal paid off. We already know it came at a huge cost with some shady back room deals, is it worth it ?

As an Economist, I typically agree with the poor decisions of public subsidies for private arenas. That said, outliers are just that and Edmonton is thankfully one of them.

240 simply does not understand Economics or investment.

But I applaud his diligence to portray something different.

We all should adhere to our values.