Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

The Jewish leadership in 1947 said okay to the UN partition plan, they were fine with that, then the Arabs said no way and war ensued, and when the losers wanted peace, the winners ended up with more land than in the original plan — which is pretty much in the natural order of things.

Is it fair enough that post-1945 Germany has significantly less territory (to this day!) than it used to, as a result of decisions made by the Adolf Hitler that the Germans chose to democratically elect?

If the Germans can live with less nowadays, and have accepted their losses, I don’t see why the Palestinians can’t. Every time they decide it’s a good idea to attack Israel, they end up even worse than before. Don’t they learn?

The Palestinians' base of allies in the Arab-Muslim world also continues to progressively weaken and shrink. (At least in power circles - the street is a different story.)

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Palestinians' base of allies in the Arab-Muslim world also continues to progressively weaken and shrink. (At least in power circles - the street is a different story.)

By now, isn't it basically down to just Iran? Given that Hamas/Palestinians are Sunni, and the Islamic Republic of Iran is a Shia theocracy, it must be hard for the Palestinians to swallow that the only allies that put any real skin in their game view them as apostates.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

By now, isn't it basically down to just Iran? Given that Hamas/Palestinians are Sunni, and the Islamic Republic of Iran is a Shia theocracy, it must be hard for the Palestinians to swallow that the only allies that put any real skin in their game view them as apostates.

There is also Hezbollah, predominantly made of Lebanese Shiites. If you count them as a "power".

[Truenorth00]

I find this discussion about minority rights in Israel a bit farcical given how I was treated in what is supposedly one of the better Arab countries in the Middle East.

Israel treats their Arab citizens better than literally any Arab country treats their minorities. And they still have the democratic and legal rights that even a lot of Arabs don't have in their own countries. The double standard that Israel is routinely held to, is interesting. Meanwhile, the Arab and Islamic world gets the racism of low expectations. Nobody expects them to enact proper democracy or human rights. But somehow they get to be mad about Israel all the time (how convenient for their autocratic rulers).

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'd quibble with the idea that the very complicated path can be reduced to something about treating people like lower class citizens. Palestinian politics and religion also play a starring role in this. They are intransigent about accepting deals (two-state solutions) but then complain as the deal gets worse over time. They have a major related problem with Islamism; the government of Gaza explicitly states that they want to wipe out Israel, which is not a good goal and not practical. Other Arab neighbours contribute to the siege mentality in Israel.

To be fair, the bolded portions can also be said of the Israelis. You can't ignore the growing role right-wing politics and religion have played in exacerbating tensions, violence and injustices. The Haredim, in particular, who tend to have supremacist ideologies, are a fast-growing demographic group in Israel who make up a larger and larger proportion of the electorate. These are the type that believe all of the West Bank should belong exclusively to Israel and generally support genocidal agendas to that end. They also, unsurprisingly, make up a large portion of illegal settlers in the West Bank, and are often behind violent attacks on Palestinians.

Let's also not forget the role evangelical christians from the US play in all this. They are one of the biggest supporters of Israeli settlement projects in the West Bank, especially in terms of monetary support. It's all aimed at manifesting biblical prophecies - they are literally trying to fast forward to armageddon. There's even a whole tourist industry in Israel that caters to these nutjobs so that they can see this madness unfolding in front of them.

If you want to speak about how religion factors in to all this, you can't ignore the above aspects either.

Originally Posted by someone123

This does not absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions but they don't have any good options.

Sorry, but the bolded portion is absolute rubbish. They absolutely do have better options that at the very least can ease tensions and feelings of resentment towards Israel from the Palestinian side. There's no excuses for what Israel is doing in the West Bank, and it's foolish to think it doesn't play a big role in the ongoing conflict.

[Hybrid247]

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[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

...Let's also not forget the role evangelical christians from the US play in all this. They are one of the biggest supporters of Israeli settlement projects in the West Bank, especially in terms of monetary support. It's all aimed at manifesting biblical prophecies - they are literally trying to fast forward to armageddon. There's even a whole tourist industry in Israel that caters to these nutjobs so that they can see this madness unfolding in front of them....

Yeah it is crazy that there are so many nutters in a First World country that literally believe in such ridiculous superstitious twaddle. Religion should be outlawed.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

To be fair, the bolded portions can also be said of the Israelis. You can't ignore the growing role right-wing politics and religion have played in exacerbating tensions, violence and injustices.

The Hamas charter says that they'd like to destroy Israel and establish an Islamic theocracy through jihad. This isn't a minority group in Gaza, it's the government. A comparable situation would be if say the Knesset passed some resolutions saying they wanted to kill or push all Palestinians/Arabs out of Israel and establish a Jewish theocracy.

Sorry, but the bolded portion is absolute rubbish. They absolutely do have better options that at the very least can ease tensions and feelings of resentment towards Israel from the Palestinian side. There's no excuses for what Israel is doing in the West Bank, and it's foolish to think it doesn't play a big role in the ongoing conflict.

Hamas says they want to wipe out Israel, not that they want Israelis to be nice to them. It's unclear what specific increased tensions the Hamas attack were a response to. Hamas is playing a "spoiler" role along with Hezbollah and Iran and likely concerned about self-preservation as a regime and as individuals. The leadership goals won't align fully with Palestinians as a whole.

[acottawa]

U.S. prosecutors say two Montreal residents helped ship weapons components to Russia

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/u-prosecut...212606757.html

[Acajack]

Item from a French news network on the silence from the world's leading humanitarian NGOs regarding hostages held by Hamas.

Hostage-taking is a war crime.

240 hostages being held, aged 2 to 87, including 43 children

- Unicef : not a word about the hostages
- Doctors Without Borders : not a peep
- Amnesty international : not a peep
- Red Cross : not a peep

https://twitter.com/rejdrouin1/statu...54950464532812

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Item from a French news network on the silence from the world's leading humanitarian NGOs regarding hostages held by Hamas.

Hostage-taking is a war crime.

240 hostages being held, aged 2 to 87, including 43 children

- Unicef : not a word about the hostages
- Doctors Without Borders : not a peep
- Amnesty international : not a peep
- Red Cross : not a peep

https://twitter.com/rejdrouin1/statu...54950464532812

Yes, it is appalling how quiet they have been. What hypocrites.

[Acajack]

Speaking of which...

https://twitter.com/TristinHopper/st...22261838119100

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Item from a French news network on the silence from the world's leading humanitarian NGOs regarding hostages held by Hamas.

Hostage-taking is a war crime.

240 hostages being held, aged 2 to 87, including 43 children

- Unicef : not a word about the hostages
- Doctors Without Borders : not a peep
- Amnesty international : not a peep
- Red Cross : not a peep

https://twitter.com/rejdrouin1/statu...54950464532812

You could literally spend 30 seconds searching to find this isn't the case. Based on posts over the past couple weeks I guess I shouldn't expect more from people on this site though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

You could literally spend 30 seconds searching to find this isn't the case. Based on posts over the past couple weeks I guess I shouldn't expect more from people on this site though.

Don't shoot the messenger!

But seriously, while one could I suppose dig up a mention somewhere, I don't think there is any doubt that humanitarian NGOs have for the most part been very discreet about the plight of these hostages.

Most of the media as well, to be frank.

[someone123]

Ehh. Their point isn't that there aren't such things on the internet and that if 1 counterexample is found by googling it can be dropped. It's that the hostage issue is not given due attention while there is huge focus on Gaza and a narrative around an Israeli offensive and need for a cease-fire (let's not talk about why the offensive happened or what is needed for a cease-fire to make sense).

As expected if you go to msf.fr on the front page there's a long list of news items about Gaza solely focused on Israel attacking Gaza and Gazans suffering. Reading that, you would not know that an attack happened in Israel and hostages were taken.

It is fine to debate what appropriate communication looks like or if Israel is overdoing it (large probability that they are IMO, though none of us get a clear picture of it) but the "I googled this and found it in seconds" response (also found on twitter) is not really a compelling criticism.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Ehh. Their point isn't that there aren't such things on the internet and that if 1 counterexample is found by googling it can be dropped. It's that the hostage issue is not given due attention while there is huge focus on Gaza and a narrative around an Israeli offensive and need for a cease-fire (let's not talk about why the offensive happened or what is needed for a cease-fire to make sense).

As expected if you go to msf.fr on the front page there's a long list of news items about Gaza solely focused on Israel attacking Gaza and Gazans suffering. Reading that, you would not know that an attack happened in Israel and hostages were taken.

Merci.

[Truenorth00]

Heck, we saw rallies for Palestine immediately after the attack, before Israel even responded. That was not a good look for people who claim to want a just peace. Where was the rally for the hostages?

[Acajack]

Cease-fire.
Cease-fire.
Cease-fire.

And then what?


(crickets)

[Wigs]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...b-fbdb254e0000

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Item from a French news network on the silence from the world's leading humanitarian NGOs regarding hostages held by Hamas....

Originally Posted by Acajack

Don't shoot the messenger!....

It's not "shooting the messenger", it's that you took a post from Twitter and presented it as fact without checking to see if it was accurate. If you'd said something like "NGOs need to step up their game or risk being perceived as not interested in the fate of the hostages as seen here" that would have been received differently.