Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed - Page 108

Migrant_Coconut · #**2141** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 5:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I believe the Georgia section already has the right-of-way set aside. There's some oddly setback sidewalks after Cardero. The streetcar would likely just take up that setback.

You can also see the curve for the RoW at Georgia and Cardero.

Though if that weird sidewalk placement really is a setback, they're not using it; the plan is to hog the curb lane leading into the park.

Again, it's probably best to hold out for a tunnel from Science World all the way to the Pavilion.

GenWhy? · #**2142** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 5:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I believe the Georgia section already has the right-of-way set aside. There's some oddly setback sidewalks after Cardero. The streetcar would likely just take up that setback.

You can also see the curve for the RoW at Georgia and Cardero.

I think the idea still is to use the current transit lane on Georgia for one direction and the ROW that is now a boulevard for the other direction.

GenWhy? · #**2143** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 5:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Though if that weird sidewalk placement really is a setback, they're not using it; the plan is to hog the curb lane leading into the park.

Again, it's probably best to hold out for a tunnel from Science World all the way to the Pavilion.

You're right... oddly enough I thought that sidewalk was a road dedication (City Property) but the property lines don't imply that is the case.

GenWhy? · #**2144** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 5:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Let us not forget that LRT stands for "Light Rapid Transit". There's nothing "rapid" about an at-grade streetcar that runs in mixed traffic. Even if it has a dedicated right of way and signal priority, it cannot travel quickly in a dense urban environment unless they're willing to fence it off and put in crossing gates, and that seems very, very unlikely.

Also stands for Light Rail Transit (Calgary / Edmonton LRT systems) as opposed to Heavy Rail Transit (Chicago or New York subway systems) in transit planning if I'm familiar. Not sure where / when the "rapid" was injected.

Agree that downtown it would be more of a "streetcar" primarily in Gastown with most other sections in a ROW, and would duplicate a lot of existing routes hence selling the longer, quicker route first if business case supports it and the Van Plan does too. But, just saying, if Edmonton can do 13km of LRT with signal priority (no crossing arms) in its own ROW end-to-start in say 35 minutes for $1.8b, that's not bad.

Some would argue the old Edmonton line was Heavy Rail (style of system and rolling stock) as it was regulated by transport rules akin to freight rail lines (crossing arms) as opposed to the new line which is more of a true Light Rail and manipulates signal priority without the need for crossing arms.

No idea why they are proposing shared traffic along the Pacific route. That's asinine.

Migrant_Coconut · #**2145** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 5:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

No idea why they are proposing shared traffic along the Pacific route. That's asinine.

Don't forget Quebec/Columbia all the way through to Gastown (and through the viaduct replacement intersection). It's like somebody's trying to cause the most possible accidents.

GenWhy? · #**2146** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 5:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't forget Quebec/Columbia all the way through to Gastown (and through the viaduct replacement intersection). It's like somebody's trying to cause the most possible accidents.

That doesn't make any sense either as there is ample ROW on Columbia and Quebec to separate the LRT.

The downtown component definitely needs a few more years before this comes out of the oven. Mott and the City need to either try harder or give up.

GenWhy? · #**2147** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 6:00 PM**

Has TransLink mentioned any changes to bus routing in response to the Millennium extension, like the #84?

Migrant_Coconut · #**2148** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 6:18 PM**

I don't see why - with or without an extension, VCC-Clark to UBC is a logical route.

Chikinlittle · #**2149** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 7:25 PM**

The Pacific branch DOES have an existing ROW set aside. The boulevard down the middle was always envisioned to host the streetcar. Even around the Cambie bridge head and the new developments (including casino), there is space set aside next to the street (wide grassy patch) to accommodate the streetcar route along Pacific.

Migrant_Coconut · #**2150** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 7:39 PM**

Down-the-middle is the same kind of bad idea that Surrey just rejected. No way in hell TransLink greenlights it.

Sheba · #**2151** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 7:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Down-the-middle is the same kind of bad idea that Surrey just rejected. No way in hell TransLink greenlights it.

The Surrey version was rejected because it would be with mixed traffic and a bit slower than the same route by bus. If they'd had it in it's own dedicated lanes then the pushback wouldn't have been as hard.

No idea how they're planning on doing this streetcar vs traffric 'cause it's still pretty much a transit fantasy - and a solution in search of a problem...

Migrant_Coconut · #**2152** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 7:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheba

The Surrey version was rejected because it would be with mixed traffic and a bit slower than the same route by bus. If they'd had it in it's own dedicated lanes then the pushback wouldn't have been as hard.

No idea how they're planning on doing this streetcar vs traffric 'cause it's still pretty much a transit fantasy - and a solution in search of a problem...

I believe the Surrey streetcar had its own median, same as this one; the real problem was all the intersections.

Also, look at the speeds again: Arbutus-Stanley Park, 15 km/h; Drake-Thornton, 14 km/h. That's much slower than a trolley bus.

WarrenC12 · #**2153** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 8:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I believe the Surrey streetcar had its own median, same as this one; the real problem was all the intersections.

Also, look at the speeds again: Arbutus-Stanley Park, 15 km/h; Drake-Thornton, 14 km/h. That's much slower than a trolley bus.

Is it really? With less stops and some dedicated ROW, it's hard to imagine how this would be slower.

GenWhy? · #**2154** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 8:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

The Pacific branch DOES have an existing ROW set aside. The boulevard down the middle was always envisioned to host the streetcar. Even around the Cambie bridge head and the new developments (including casino), there is space set aside next to the street (wide grassy patch) to accommodate the streetcar route along Pacific.

Agreed a little bit (3-ish blocks) of it is in ROW, but the City's 2018 concept design has the line in shared lanes from Nelson to Quebec along Pacific (which I did not type but was referencing).

jollyburger · #**2155** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 8:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is it really? With less stops and some dedicated ROW, it's hard to imagine how this would be slower.

Unless they get priority lights then it won't be much faster.

WarrenC12 · #**2156** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 8:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Unless they get priority lights then it won't be much faster.

Sure, but I was responding to a post that said it would be "much slower" than a trolley bus.

Migrant_Coconut · #**2157** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 9:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is it really? With less stops and some dedicated ROW, it's hard to imagine how this would be slower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sure, but I was responding to a post that said it would be "much slower" than a trolley bus.

Check the TSPR: the 4 averages 17.6 km/h, and that's including the slow crawl up downtown Granville. That's 3+ km/h faster than planned for both streetcar lines.

My guess, once it leaves the ROW it's going to slow down drastically to avoid collisions.

cganuelas1995 · #**2158** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 10:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

They should abandon the terminology of "streetcar" and replace it with LRT or "urban LRT" like they did in Edmonton for their new line which averages twice the speed (35km/hr - ish?). Streetcar makes people think most of it isn't in its own ROW.

Edmonton's new 13km line has 11 stops cost $1.8 billion which includes maintenance yard, road and utility upgrades to build a ROW from scratch with elevated sections, a tunnel and bridge, and does end-to-end in 35-40 minutes.

About 18km is the current existing ROW from roughly Granville & 70th to Olympic Station. I always thought the full build-out was something like 25km?

City saying Arbutus to Science World in the existing ROW with 8 cars and maintenance yard is $500m. Think we can do 25km for $2b in 2025?

I seriously cannot tell the difference between a streetcar and light rail anymore.

Metro-One · #**2159** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 10:22 PM**

Just build the section from Main Street station to Arbutus.

It will properly connect Granville Island to the network, has most of the ROW in place (much of it separate from traffic, with its own rail bed already in place), and would be a nice homage to the historic street car system while also being useful. This section could also easily be upgraded to full LRT when the Arbutus LRT is built.

ilikeredheads · #**2160** Posted **Sep 17, 2021, 11:24 PM**

Columbia Street:

Cordova Street:

Pacific blvd:

They want to keep the parking? lol wut?

Also, on Pacific next to BC place, the westbound track is running AGAINST traffic direction, on a SHARED LANE! Surely nothing can go wrong!