Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[isaidso]

The Canadian market is tapped out for NHL expansion only if you exclude Quebec City, Hamilton, and York Region. We're saturated at ~10 teams. US markets may have larger populations but that doesn't make them more enticing to the NHL.

Competition for the entertainment dollar, corporate base, cultural interest, and a number of other things factor in.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by isaidso

US markets may have larger populations but that doesn't make them more enticing to the NHL.

It does while Gary Bettman is still breathing.

[isaidso]

Agree. He's been a disaster for the development of of professional hockey in this country. Conversely, he's been a boon to Laval football and essential to the erosion of fortress hockey in the GTA. The Ti-Cats, Raptors, and Reds should shower him with gifts and encourage him to keep ignoring Canada.

[osmo]

NHL has morphed into a USA focused leave and no longer the binational partnership that it started out as. NHL isn't responsible for growing the game here. The biggest issue with Canada NHL has largely been ownership groups that have been resistant to grow stable organizations that draft high and going after quality players. For nearly 15 years Canadian teams could never do people rebuilds as they feared they would scare says or anger thier markets. This is the core reason why Canadian teams haven not won the Cup in nearly a generation. Gary has nothing to do with that. All the blame is with ownership up here. Edmonton and Toronto have been the only teams to actually take it down to the wood and gut thier teams with the goal of getting good draft picks. Edmonton still has bad ownership and executives which isn't making those pieces work but Toronto has turned it around.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I know it's a long shot, a ridiculously long shot, but I could see, one day, Saskatoon with an NHL team to balance Regina's CFL team.

Cities That Should Have an NHL Team
By Sheng Peng on October 4, 2018
www.Stadiumtalk.com

Even though Saskatoon is still listed in publications as recent as last month, as city that should have an NHL team, the door for Saskatoon getting NHL hockey creeped open but was firmly slammed shut in the early 1980s when the St.Louis Blues were sold to Bill Hunter, who intended to move the team to Saskatoon, before the league vetoed the sale.
Saskatchewan has the highest proportion of NHL players per capita than any other province in Canada but has the lowest following of the NHL out of any province in Canada. I believe with the lack luster ticket sales to previous years NHL exhibition matches at SaskTel Centre, this is one of the first years not to have NHL exhibition matches played in Saskatoon in almost a decade.

The new arena Saskatoon will be building in the next decade isn't intended for bringing NHL to the city, the new arena is for maintaining Saskatoon & Saskatchewan on top seed for other sports leagues, events & concerts to the province. PBR Finals Canada is held at SaskTel Centre each year & the Centre is usually one of the top half a dozen arena venues in Canada for concerts, one of the exclusive arenas in Canada picked by acts like, Cher & Elton John for their final tours, for example. Metallica set an attendance record of ~17,000 spectators couple months ago at SaskTel Centre, but for top acts to continue to have access to playing to Saskatchewan's crowds, with one of the youngest median ages in all of Canada, Saskatoon needs to have one of top facilities to maintain it's top billing of entertainment.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SaskTe..._Rush_Game.jpg

SaskTel Centre's main sports tenants are Rush Lacrosse & Blades hockey and in 2019 Rattler Basketball in the CEBL. Saskatchewan teams as a whole are often used as a template for establishing strong teams in sports leagues; NLL, CFL, WHL are examples, It could happen for a NHL team in Saskatchewan too but that ship has sailed & it's not on anyone's wish list for Saskatchewan in the future.

[zoomer]

For small cities Regina and Saskatoon taxpayers have no problem supporting major stadium projects. I’m pretty sure I won’t see a +20,000 outdoor stadium in Victoria in my lifetime. And maybe that’s ok for the amount of events they host. Even in Nanaimo a referendum to build a very modest arena failed miserably.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Interesting Spauto is considering spending $50 million to renovate stade saputo in the future. If that is the case I wonder if the Alouettes should consider moving there if they can accommodate a CFL field like BMO, as Molson stadium has almost no ability to generate ancillary revenue streams with its tight footprint boxed in by McGill buildings and so few corporate suits.

https://montrealgazette.com/sports/s...nual-shortfall

Most of the Alouettes fanbase is located in the west end/West Island, far from Saputo stadium. The distance could make this potential deal problematic.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by osmo

For nearly 15 years Canadian teams could never do people rebuilds as they feared they would scare says or anger thier markets.

I disagree with this.

Canadian teams have the luxury of being able to suck for an extended period of time while only alienating a smaller portion of their fanbase. We see this with teams like Toronto and Edmonton. The US based teams don't have this luxury - as the minute a team starts to suck (during a rebuild or otherwise), a lot of fans turn away. We've seen this over the years with the Red Wings, Avalanche, Penguins, Ducks, etc. - teams that were great and the fans stayed away when they went bad.

The Canadian markets have a deeper fan base, so if anyone bails on them - there are usually people lined up ready to replace them in buying tickets. You could still get a drop in attendance like we have in Ottawa - but half the US teams would love to have their Sens attendance.

Anyways, this really isn't the thread to discuss this.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

It does while Gary Bettman is still breathing.

The goals of the BoG likely don't change much once Bettman is gone. Better steers a ship mostly directed by the BoG.

Originally Posted by isaidso

Agree. He's been a disaster for the development of of professional hockey in this country.

How? The NHL is doing better today than it ever did in the past on a number of different fronts. How is professional hockey in this country worse than in the 80s/90s when a number of teams were nearly insolvent?

If you want better hockey teams you should start demanding more from better owners.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by JHikka

How? The NHL is doing better today than it ever did in the past on a number of different fronts. How is professional hockey in this country worse than in the 80s/90s when a number of teams were nearly insolvent?

1 team for all of southern Ontario with nose bleed seats starting at $100? Instead of growing professional hockey and cultivating new fans in this region, Bettman and the NHL have ignored this market completely. He went to places like Atlanta and Phoenix instead.

When demand far outstrips supply people will eventually move on to other sports and other leagues. In southern Ontario you have huge swaths of the population who've moved on. Some were hockey fans who've gotten frustrated with being shut out and switched to something else but most are people that could have been lured to the NHL but were never given a product to get behind. They picked up basketball or soccer instead.

'Fortress Hockey' was so dominant that even after 3 decades of neglect there's still a huge fan base. On the surface everything looks fine but the NHL has nothing close to the dominance it once had. If they keep this up I can see hockey slipping to 2nd or even 3rd in southern Ontario within a generation. Of course lots of hockey people won't even notice because all they'll see is a full arena and conclude that everything is fine.

Quebec City is another obvious example. People will only wait so long before they give up. Laval football has filled in the vacuum.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by zoomer

For small cities Regina and Saskatoon taxpayers have no problem supporting major stadium projects. I’m pretty sure I won’t see a +20,000 outdoor stadium in Victoria in my lifetime. And maybe that’s ok for the amount of events they host. Even in Nanaimo a referendum to build a very modest arena failed miserably.

I'm not sure where you got this info from, but there was/is significant opposition in both Regina and Saskatoon. Saskatoon is unlikely to make progress on a new arena (or renovate Sask Place, for that matter) because of the opposition of the community.


Saskatoon is very much like Halifax in this sense: a middle-to-large city that refuses to move past the small city mentality.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I'm not sure where you got this info from, but there was/is significant opposition in both Regina and Saskatoon. Saskatoon is unlikely to make progress on a new arena (or renovate Sask Place, for that matter) because of the opposition of the community.


Saskatoon is very much like Halifax in this sense: a middle-to-large city that refuses to move past the small city mentality.

Actually Saskatoon has grown a lot in the last few decades as a city. That small city attitude has been slowly dying out little by little. Willing to bet a new Arena will be built in the next 10 years, probably before Calgary replaces the Saddledome....

[zoomer]

Saskatoon has an arena that is massive (15,100 seats) even its current population of 250,000.

I see the Blades attendance has declined for six straight years and is under 4,000 per game, so why the need to build a new arena unless the seating will be reduced? I get the downtown is better angle, and that there are other events and teams using the arena.

Matter of opinion but I wouldn’t call Saskatoon a middle to large city in the Canadian context, but a small to medium city.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Actually Saskatoon has grown a lot in the last few decades as a city. That small city attitude has been slowly dying out little by little. Willing to bet a new Arena will be built in the next 10 years, probably before Calgary replaces the Saddledome....

I disagree entirely. The small city attitude is reflected in many aspects of the city, including the bridges, the fight over revamping the transit system, the arena (but muh parking), and infill (demonstrated by the recent NIMBYism found on Broadway).

Originally Posted by zoomer

Saskatoon has an arena that is massive (15,100 seats) even its current population of 250,000.

I see the Blades attendance has declined for six straight years and is under 4,000 per game, so why the need to build a new arena unless the seating will be reduced? I get the downtown is better angle, and that there are other events and teams using the arena.

Matter of opinion but I wouldn’t call Saskatoon a middle to large city in the Canadian context, but a small to medium city.

The Blades have never been a major draw to Sask Place. The Rush are the first team to draw consistent sellouts to the arena.

Saskatoon is in an interesting position, because although the arena is large in context of the city, it is the main arena for the entire province. So if a major tour is going to stop in Saskatchewan, it will be there. Saskatoon has had a pretty good success rate at not only attracting big shows, but selling them out (17K to Metallica this year is a great example), so really I don't believe there is a reason to reduce the seating. If they reduced the seating I think it would put Saskatchewan's appeal as a major concert stop in jeopardy (although to be fair, the age of the arena is doing that as well).

It works for one of the main tenants, and for a majority of concerts, so why should it be reduced for a tenant that has never been a huge draw in the city?

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I disagree entirely. The small city attitude is reflected in many aspects of the city, including the bridges, the fight over revamping the transit system, the arena (but muh parking), and infill (demonstrated by the recent NIMBYism found on Broadway).

Explain please?

How exactly is small city attitude reflected in the bridges? transit? infill?

Please do site one or two things mate, infill is fought in EVERY city in Canada, does that make every city "small"? Same goes with transit. Winnipeg doesn't have mass transit, does that make it small?

[Nouvellecosse]

Winnipeg doesn't have mass transit?? Are you sure you're not getting it confused with somewhere else?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

1 team for all of southern Ontario with nose bleed seats starting at $100? Instead of growing professional hockey and cultivating new fans in this region, Bettman and the NHL have ignored this market completely. He went to places like Atlanta and Phoenix instead.

When demand far outstrips supply people will eventually move on to other sports and other leagues. In southern Ontario you have huge swaths of the population who've moved on. Some were hockey fans who've gotten frustrated with being shut out and switched to something else but most are people that could have been lured to the NHL but were never given a product to get behind. They picked up basketball or soccer instead.

'Fortress Hockey' was so dominant that even after 3 decades of neglect there's still a huge fan base. On the surface everything looks fine but the NHL has nothing close to the dominance it once had. If they keep this up I can see hockey slipping to 2nd or even 3rd in southern Ontario within a generation. Of course lots of hockey people won't even notice because all they'll see is a full arena and conclude that everything is fine.

Quebec City is another obvious example. People will only wait so long before they give up. Laval football has filled in the vacuum.

I tend to agree with this. Hockey is still very strong but not what it used to be and is declining. In Canada the NHL could or should be what the NFL is in the US at the moment. They have squandered this opportunity.

[migo]

Originally Posted by elly63

It does while Gary Bettman is still breathing.

From the moment Gary Bettman became NHL commissioner, my gut feeling has always been the following: A Canadian team will not win the Stanley Cup as long as the status quo remains. This feeling was reinforced after reading a line from a Wikipedia page about him the other day: "The [NHL] owners hired Bettman with the mandate of selling the game in the U.S. market..." I have and continue to speculate that a Canadian team winning the Stanley Cup would have and could still potentially roll back the years of investment in that ongoing priority, now in its 25th year.

And so, does this mean that the whole thing is rigged? Well you be the judge...but just remember, it's your money and faith well placed or misplaced!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Saskatoon has an arena that is massive (15,100 seats) even its current population of 250,000.

I see the Blades attendance has declined for six straight years and is under 4,000 per game, so why the need to build a new arena unless the seating will be reduced? I get the downtown is better angle, and that there are other events and teams using the arena.

I don't really get the push for a new Saskatoon arena either. The current venue is more than adequate for the WHL and NLL. The NLL regular season only has 9 home games so it makes no sense to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to add maybe a couple thousand seats and a few more skyboxes for a handful of Rush games.

There is the downtown revitalization angle, but that's not really the driving factor in replacing a perfectly serviceable arena.

Somehow it feels like the arena discussion in Saskatoon is about nothing more than keeping up with Regina... "they got their stadium, so we should get an arena".

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by migo

From the moment Gary Bettman became NHL commissioner, my gut feeling has always been the following: A Canadian team will not win the Stanley Cup as long as the status quo remains. This feeling was reinforced after reading a line from a Wikipedia page about him the other day: "The [NHL] owners hired Bettman with the mandate of selling the game in the U.S. market..." I have and continue to speculate that a Canadian team winning the Stanley Cup would have and could still potentially roll back the years of investment in that ongoing priority, now in its 25th year.

And so, does this mean that the whole thing is rigged? Well you be the judge...but just remember, it's your money and faith well placed or misplaced!

Just because the NHL's main priority is to sell the game in the US, doesn't necessarily mean it's rigged so US teams will win the cup. I'm sure the NHL loves the idea of only US teams in the finals - but that's not the same as rigging.

If it were truly rigged, why would 4 teams still make the finals in the last 14 seasons? 3 of which went to a game 7.

Plus would the Oilers have gotten all those 1st round picks - including McJesus? Would the Leafs wind up getting Auston Mathews - especially since he's an American boy?

There were only 6 Canadian teams out of 30 in the NHL for a while, now 7 out of 31... the odds of a Canadian team winning a cup are going to be lower than a US team simply based on numbers.