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  #2101  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post

3) If a dual use (use of the standard rail gage for AMTRAK, commuter rail, together with local "inter-neighborhood" operations) were to move forward, it might well advance the entire concept much faster...including trails, bike paths, and pocket parks, etc. You see this all over Europe. The local trains use the same tracks as regional and interstate traffic.
True, there is often shared track use for certain trains, when I asked about this to somebody familiar with the project I was told that it wouldn't work because of the proposed speeds.

A good compromise would be to just have the commuter and freight trains go slower through that 2-3 mile segment to match the local transit.

In the back of my mind, I half think this is just a ploy by GDOT to get that eastside highway tunnel built (which conveniently parallels the Beltline) and put the freight and Amtrak in the tunnel too, thus generating even more money for the highway contractor that builds it. Maybe I'm just being too cynical.
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  #2102  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 8:44 PM
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You may be onto something, Terminus.

And I don't think for a minute you are being cynical. It sounds like you have a clue.
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  #2103  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
The area affected contains 0.1% of the state's population.
So? Did Wayne Mason build his towers? These people are why that never happened.

I don't think you know this area, and what it's residents are capable of.
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  #2104  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 8:54 PM
smArTaLlone smArTaLlone is offline
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Originally Posted by atlantaguy View Post
You may be onto something, Terminus.

And I don't think for a minute you are being cynical. It sounds like you have a clue.
I agree. I've definately been thinking that there is something about this story that I'm missing. How is it that a state government that has had federal money designated for a pilot commuter line in hand for years and done nothing with it, suddenly has interest in this "pressing" need for high speed rail to NC?????????????

Last edited by smArTaLlone; Feb 2, 2009 at 3:24 AM.
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  #2105  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2009, 9:06 PM
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^Thank you!

Well, supposedly Boss Hogg aka Sonny-Bubba is going to unveil his new, reworked, better-than-ever transportation initiative any day now.

Perhaps we'll find out, but I'm preparing for the worst possible outcome for the Metro, whatever it is.
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  #2106  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 2:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiorenza View Post
The area affected contains 0.1% of the state's population.
That's not very forward-thinking. I imagine you could say the same thing about San Fernando valley, ca once upon a time.
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  #2107  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 3:23 AM
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"Forward-thinking " is in the eye of the beholder. I would certainly oppose allowing freight traffic in that corridor, but imagine for example if there were local trains running on narrow gage rail laid inside of normal gague rail, and these narrow gage tram-trains called on neighborhood stations placed every mile or so. Riders could easily walk or cycle to them. They don't have to be placed every 0.5 mile as indicated in the current scheme.



When a heavy rail train is passing through at reduced speed (I like that idea from Terminus), the local equipment (German equivalent: Stadtzug oder so etwas) could be in a siding at a station. That's the way to combine both uses. The commuter trains could even call at one or two of the local stops to pick up passengers collected from the local trains. The problem I've seen with plans for the Beltline as well as "brain train", is that too many stops are proposed....I guess to please every local pol or neighborhood association, but it's too many. No serious user would tolerate so many stops.
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  #2108  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 4:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tombstoner View Post
Do you really think anybody is going to divert attention to other light rail lines while the Beltline is on the drawing board? I don't.

I agree, the Beltline is more urban renewal than transit, but it is the transit component that almost everyone in this forum (and in Atlanta more broadly) think of when they think of the Beltline. I do think this skews our general ability to consider other transit priorities.
I do. For one thing Marta is not a city of Atlanta entity. Its chances of expansion at this point rests at the regional and state level reguardless of what happens with the Beltline.
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  #2109  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 3:39 PM
Tombstoner Tombstoner is offline
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Originally Posted by smArTaLlone View Post
I do. For one thing Marta is not a city of Atlanta entity. Its chances of expansion at this point rests at the regional and state level reguardless of what happens with the Beltline.
True enough, but regional and state levels need to work with the city, and if the city is obsessing (perhaps as a means of making it a higher priority) on the Beltline, I don't see how any light rail moves forward. I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
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  #2110  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by atlantaguy View Post
So? Did Wayne Mason build his towers? These people are why that never happened.

I don't think you know this area, and what it's residents are capable of.
The towers were never built because it became obvious that it was a stupid plan.
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  #2111  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 4:59 PM
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Right now the overriding fact of life in Atlanta, in Georgia and in the US is the lack of public money to do much of anything. If public safety workers can't be hired and pothioles can't be fixed, then the Beltline is not going to be funded anytime soon.
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  #2112  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 8:39 PM
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Monday, February 2, 2009, 2:48pm EST

House antes up on transportation fundingAtlanta Business Chronicle - by Dave Williams Staff Writer

Metro Atlanta would get a huge highway and transit fix from legislation introduced by Georgia House leaders Monday.

A proposed constitutional amendment would fund a network of interstate highway toll lanes, widening of arterial roads across the region and several long-awaited passenger rail projects.

The legislation calls for a referendum next year asking Georgia voters to approve a 1 percent sales tax dedicated to transportation. If approved, if would raise about $25 billion over 10 years, said House Transportation Committee Chairman Vance Smith, the measure’s chief sponsor.

The legislation is an alternative to a Senate measure that would let Georgians vote by region whether to increase sales taxes for highway and transit improvements.

“We think a statewide approach, with a list of projects, is the best way to go,” said Smith, R-Pine Mountain. “It helps people to know … what the state will receive.”

The proposal contains a grab bag of projects affecting every corner of the state. A key provision for Georgians outside of metro Atlanta is a plan to give the 30 largest city governments outside the metro region $1,000 for every resident to put toward transportation projects.

Inside the metro area, the legislation’s list of projects includes expanding interstates 75, 85, 20 and 285, and Georgia 400. Drivers would pay tolls to help pay for the additional lanes.

In the northern suburbs, the proposed tax would finance widening Georgia 20 from I-75 to Georgia 316, the route intended for the now-defunct Northern Arc, and for converting 316 from Lawrenceville to Athens into a limited-access toll road.

The rail components would include the planned Atlanta Beltline, a commuter rail line linking Atlanta and Athens and two light rail lines from Kennesaw State University to the I-285/I-85 interchange, and paralleling I-20 from downtown Atlanta to eastern DeKalb County.

Lawmakers have pledged not to try to raise taxes during a recession. Smith said his legislation meets that test because it would give voters the ability to tax themselves rather than having a tax hike dictated by the General Assembly.

“This is not imposing a tax,” he said. “We’re asking the people of Georgia to go to the polls.”
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  #2113  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 9:35 PM
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One of the worst measures ever contemplated by an elected assembly. I'll hereby pledge $100 to any candidate, Republican or Democrat, who runs against Smith. The meto Atlanta area would end up with 1/5 of the funding, per capita, for transportation improvements compared to the rest of the state.
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  #2114  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 12:39 AM
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This Vance Smith guy must think we are stupid. Why would I vote to tax myself an extra 1% and then only receive approximately 1/5th of it back. The State Senators of Georgia have been pulling this crap for decades. They never want to help the metro area but they always want us to support them financially. I'm going on-line to find this guys e-mail,fax, and phone number and let him know how we city folks feel about this proposal.
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  #2115  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 12:53 AM
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I'm confused. Where does the article state that Atlanta's only getting 1/5th of the money back?
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  #2116  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 1:20 AM
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"a commuter rail line linking Atlanta and Athens"

Would this be one of the trains that would requires the Decatur Belt of the Beltline?

Or is it just the rail from Chatanooga? Wasn't that supposedly to be a mag-lev concept anyways?
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  #2117  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 1:22 AM
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Where does the article state that Atlanta's only getting 1/5th of the money back?
That's my guesstimate, based on the evidence. A 1% sales tax would raise maybe $2.5 billion per year statewide, no more. Based on population ratio (6 million divided into 10 million total) the Atlanta metro share thereof would be $1.5 billion. The 30 biggest towns outside the metro Atlanta region would get $1k per resident. If the Atlanta metro got $1k per resident it would be a total of $6 billion for the metro alone, so it tells me the Atlanta metro would get shortchanged, bigtime. This is the last chance before the next reapportonment for rural Georgia to get a big slab of pork, while metro Atlanta metro pays the bill.
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  #2118  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 5:32 AM
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Agencies working together on Beltline ‘solution’

Officials from the city of Atlanta, the Georgia Department of Transportation, MARTA, Amtrak and other agencies agreed Monday to a 30-day timeout to work out a solution over how best to use a portion of the Beltline railroad tracks.

Mayor Shirley Franklin complained to U.S. Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.) in a letter last week that GDOT and Amtrak proposed moves that could endanger the project.

State officials expressed interest in high-speed rail on some portions of the tracks. City leaders believe the tracks and surrounding neighborhoods are better suited for light rail.

Officials from the agencies met Monday at Lewis’ Atlanta offices and released a joint statement that said they will work over the next 30 days on a “common solution.”

The Beltline is a 22-mile loop around Atlanta’s core. Supporters hope the project will encourage more affordable housing, parks and walking trails in neighborhoods near the loop over the next two decades.
I hope this "common solution" is the best possible solution for both proposals.
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  #2119  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 2:39 PM
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Beltline’s promise is clear, but DOT’s isn’t

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Monday, February 02, 2009

It was going to be a bright and glorious new day, the dawn of an era of cooperation and consultation and trust.

Just a few weeks ago, at a transportation summit, the Georgia Department of Transportation, MARTA, the Atlanta Regional Commission and state, city and county officials from the metro region all pledged a new way of doing things.

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No more inter-agency feuding over transportation. State, local and regional transportation agencies would no longer push their own secret agendas at the expense of the larger good.

When they talked with officials in Washington, they would speak with one voice, a voice that was loud and clear and communicating a single message. If they sent conflicting messages to Washington, as they had in the past, they would lose the federal money they all needed.

But alas, golden eras can end so quickly.

Within two weeks of that meeting, the state DOT filed a last-minute objection with a federal agency that threatens to torpedo Atlanta’s cherished Beltline, a transit project the city has spent millions of dollars and years of effort nurturing to fruition.

If that wasn’t enough, DOT also recruited muscle in the form of Amtrak, which is threatening to use its federal authority to try to condemn the property from Atlanta.

Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin responded with an angry letter to U.S. Rep. John Lewis, complaining that the DOT’s “boorish behavior” puts the city’s future at stake.

DOT Commissioner Gena Evans then warned that Atlanta’s behavior could endanger any hope of bringing commuter rail and high-speed rail service to the city.

So much for speaking in one voice to Washington.

In brief, here’s the issue: The northeast quadrant of the Beltline, known as the Decatur Belt, is a 4.3-mile piece of railroad right of way formerly run by Norfolk Southern. Running through residential areas and along Piedmont Park, it is the most commercially valuable property on the 22-mile Beltline; the city’s plans for financing the project depend heavily on private investment in that area.

But before the property could be freed for other uses, Norfolk Southern had to get an OK from the U.S. Surface Transportation Board to abandon it as a railway.

The DOT, while supportive of the Beltline, believes that preserving the Decatur Belt as a railway is essential to eventually bringing high-speed rail and commuter rail service into a proposed multimodal station in downtown Atlanta, near the Five Points MARTA station. It also believes that the Beltline property could accommodate all three uses —- Beltline, high-speed rail and commuter rail.

So earlier this month, without apparent warning to the city, the DOT filed a last-minute objection with the Surface Transportation Board to try to stop abandonment. If it succeeds, and if Amtrak succeeds in condemning the land, it could kill the Beltline project altogether.

So let’s try to answer a series of questions:

Was the city betrayed, misled or ambushed by DOT? Evans says that DOT staff have warned city staff for years about the importance of the property for future passenger rail; the record supports that claim, but only to a degree. It suggests that DOT and city staff have discussed their various viewpoints on the matter in the past, but they have been talking to each other without really listening to each other.

However, knowing how central the Decatur Belt property was to Beltline plans, and how important those plans were to the city, the DOT should have made it consistently clear that it would not allow those plans to go forward.

So now what? What are the merits of the case?

The DOT argues that the Decatur Belt is the only means possible to bring high-speed rail and commuter rail into downtown.

It is not. It is the easiest route, the currently fastest route, the cheapest route. It is clearly the best route. But it is not the only route.

Furthermore, it’s hard to ask the city to greatly compromise or abandon its Beltline plan —- a project core to Atlanta’s vision of itself —- because the DOT may someday get its act together on commuter rail. The agency has paid lip service to the concept of commuter rail for years, but even the lip service has been half-hearted.

For example, an environmental assessment of a downtown multimodal station was completed back in 1995, the same year DOT completed its so-called “Commuter Rail Plan Final Report.” But nothing has happened to make those plans real.

In fact, an $87 million federal appropriation for commuter rail between Atlanta and Lovejoy has been sitting untouched for more than five years, awaiting matching money from the state that has never come.

Last year, Gov. Sonny Perdue did hold a news conference to announce that he was suddenly a supporter of commuter rail in general and the Lovejoy line in particular.

“Let’s move out aggressively,” Perdue said. “Once I’ve made up my mind, I’m usually impatient.” Since then, silence. Once again, there is no money for the Lovejoy line in the impatient Perdue’s 2010 budget.

Franklin put the situation pretty well in her letter to Lewis:

“We have invested far too much in the Beltline and have seen too much growth and investment for it to be stymied by the actions of a state agency that does not have a viable plan or funding for commuter rail … let alone funding for projects to which it has already committed.”

In its own filing to the Surface Transportation Board, Amtrak cites a similar case from Detroit as a precedent for its request to condemn the Beltline property. In that case, a short piece of inner-city rail line was proposed for abandonment; Amtrak intervened, telling the board the property was essential to connect to a proposed downtown transit and commuter rail station.

That case was decided in 1986 in Amtrak’s favor. However, the Detroit commuter and inter-city rail station cited by Amtrak to justify its claim was never built.

Two other notes are also important:

> Neither the proposed Lovejoy line nor the “Brain Train” to Athens —- the two commuter lines most likely to be built sometime this century —- would use the Decatur Belt property needed for the Beltline.

> A high-speed rail line with trains traveling at 80-100 mph through dense intown neighborhoods is a questionable proposition at best. It would certainly rule out bike and walking paths and other amenities along that line.

For the moment, the Surface Transportation Board has issued a temporary stay in the case, giving time for heads to cool and negotiations to begin. If compromise can be found, great.

But asking Atlanta to set aside its Beltline dream for gauzy plans by state officials who have shown no real commitment to passenger rail —- that’s asking a lot.
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  #2120  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 8:42 PM
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I went to that rally last weekend to protest the DOT and AMTRAK taking the right of way away from the Beltline. What a dumb idea. They're never going to build HSR rail in Georgia in any of our lifetimes and even if they did I don't see the point of running it all the way into the city limits. Just put a nice terminal up around Doraville where there's tons of space. Anyone who needs to come in closer than that can hop on MARTA and shoot straight into Buckhead, Midtown or points south.
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