Manitoba Highways

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Ok, then how is New Brunswick with a population of ~835K is able to have a 4-lane, controlled access TCH freeway (which is longer than MB's TCH), its two major highways to the US (NB-1 and NB-95 are 4-lane controlled access freeways) and its slowly twinning its other major highways or in areas where twinning is not justified due to low AADT counts, its major highways are built to a super-2 standard.

They’ve used Public-Private Partnership model. Even today the province is still paying back the private partners: There are hidden toll cameras under N.B.-2 with which the private partners bill the province.
If done right, it gets things done quickly, but if done wrong, things get messy really quickly.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Ok, then how is New Brunswick with a population of ~835K is able to have a 4-lane, controlled access TCH freeway (which is longer than MB's TCH), its two major highways to the US (NB-1 and NB-95 are 4-lane controlled access freeways) and its slowly twinning its other major highways or in areas where twinning is not justified due to low AADT counts, its major highways are built to a super-2 standard.

New Brunswick: 72,908 square kilometres, 10.9 ppl/km^2

Manitoba: 650,000 square kilometres, 2.5 ppl/km^2

With similar GDP per person, I am sure you can deduce the reasons why.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Ok, then how is New Brunswick with a population of ~835K is able to have a 4-lane, controlled access TCH freeway (which is longer than MB's TCH), its two major highways to the US (NB-1 and NB-95 are 4-lane controlled access freeways) and its slowly twinning its other major highways or in areas where twinning is not justified due to low AADT counts, its major highways are built to a super-2 standard.

Population density.

MB Q3 2023 estimate: 1 454 902 residents; land area 553 556 km^2
NB Q3 2023 estimate: 834 691 residents; land area 71 450 km^2

So just at that, Manitoba has ~1.75x the population, but 7.75 times the land to service. I recognize that the north doesn't have as much infrastructure but there still has to be some service out there. To support this, here's an older stat on how many kms of public roads each province had in 2003. MB had almost 87k kms and NB 31.5k km, so ~2.76 times as many kms of roadway per citizen to maintain and snow clear.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/...tbl001-eng.htm

This is before we add the factor of flood related infrastructure MB has had to deal with.

[Sasquatch]

A reasonable compromise in Manitoba's case would be to upgrade the Perimeter to freeway status within a specified period of time and levy tolls on drivers using it at least until the roadworks are paid for. Toll roads are commonplace in many areas of the world, but voters here seem to bristle at the thought of anyone using a service paying directly for it.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

A reasonable compromise in Manitoba's case would be to upgrade the Perimeter to freeway status within a specified period of time and levy tolls on drivers using it at least until the roadworks are paid for. Toll roads are commonplace in many areas of the world, but voters here seem to bristle at the thought of anyone using a service paying directly for it.

A big issue is that, for the truckers bypassing Winnipeg, it’s not necessarily up to them whether they can use a toll road. The last thing we want here is convoys of trucks rolling through Portage & Main.

The province can try banning bypassing trucks through the heart of Winnipeg, but trucking companies can launch lawsuit against the province at that point. While they may not necessarily win, it seems like unnecessary hassle.

[bomberjet]

The Province has a plan to upgrade the South Perimeter. Hoping the recent deficit will not significantly impact the schedule.

I assume we will see a similar plan for the Noth Perimeter once they get through the study.

If the Province is serious about upgrading the TCH and PTH 75, they could look at P3's or other delivery methods. I don't think toll roads will fly. With the Perimeter upgrades taking up the "standard" cash, P3's will make it easier to get things done as they require significantly less money upfront.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The Province has a plan to upgrade the South Perimeter. Hoping the recent deficit will not significantly impact the schedule.

I assume we will see a similar plan for the Noth Perimeter once they get through the study.

If the Province is serious about upgrading the TCH and PTH 75, they could look at P3's or other delivery methods. I don't think toll roads will fly.

I have a feeling that NPD and P3 don’t go together, though…
But yes, otherwise, P3, if done right, can be used on any type of upgrade, including twinning of TCH, Deacon Corner’s bypass, Headingley Bypass, etc.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

They’ve used Public-Private Partnership model. Even today the province is still paying back the private partners: There are hidden toll cameras under N.B.-2 with which the private partners bill the province.
If done right, it gets things done quickly, but if done wrong, things get messy really quickly.

The "shadow tolls" are only on the Moncton-Fredericton segment of TCH-2. Originally, there were toll booths, but NB drivers squawked about paying tolls and the booths were removed, replaced by shadow tolls.

That is true, P3s were used and the province is paying back the private partners; who are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the P3 sections for a set period (believe it's until 2040 for some of the P3 highways); after which the highways revert back to NBDTI control. P3 worked well for NB as the province now has 400-series/Interstate standard highways.

The existing Super-2s in NB existed long before the TCH was upgraded. As example, NB-11 between Bathurst and Campbellton was first constructed as a Super-2 in the 1970's; finishing in the 1980's.

It was the leadership under Premier Frank McKenna, who was elected in 1987, to improve NB's horrible and unsafe highways which existed at that time.

[Sasquatch]

I guarantee that the deficit numbers will impact this schedule. My guess is that they will likely go ahead with the McGillivray interchange since it seems to be a partially baked cake at this point but beyond that they will just postpone indefinitely. We may be facing another era similar to the post-Filmon years in which the highways budget is seen as a politically favorable target for spending cuts.

[Dengler Avenue]

It was the leadership under Premier Frank McKenna, who was elected in 1987, to improve NB's horrible and unsafe highways which existed at that time.

This part is key. Will such a premier exist for Manitoba?
By the way, even when Nova Scotia was broke, they managed to pull a P3 to build 4 lanes of TCH around the death trap called Wentworth Valley. Will such a premier exist for Manitoba??

[bomberjet]

RFP for McGillivray design is/was out. They're supposed to be finished up the conceptual design updates in December here per the website. They can shut that project down at any time. It's still relatively early days there.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

A big issue is that, for the truckers bypassing Winnipeg, it’s not necessarily up to them whether they can use a toll road. The last thing we want here is convoys of trucks rolling through Portage & Main.

The province can try banning bypassing trucks through the heart of Winnipeg, but trucking companies can launch lawsuit against the province at that point. While they may not necessarily win, it seems like unnecessary hassle.

With trucking as focused on timing of deliveries as it is, I think that truckers would learn to accept the tolls rather than grind their way through dozens of traffic lights and miss delivery deadlines.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

RFP for McGillivray design is/was out. They're supposed to be finished up the conceptual design updates in December here per the website. They can shut that project down at any time. It's still relatively early days there.

Yikes. That's not good. Especially when that section of the province is not favorable to the NDP electorally.

[bomberjet]

Sorry to clarify. I think it is the RFQ for proponents for a design-build that is out. But I'm a bit detached from that and not 100% sure. Either way, it can be shutdown at anytime, even during construction.

[optimusREIM]

What a mess. Infrastructure is such an easy win politically, everyone loves new shiny roads. I am shocked nobody has gambled big on upgrades to highways, you'd think that would be a great message to run on.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

What a mess. Infrastructure is such an easy win politically, everyone loves new shiny roads. I am shocked nobody has gambled big on upgrades to highways, you'd think that would be a great message to run on.

Maybe only on SSP?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Maybe only on SSP?

I'm going off of how much people in general complain about the state of roads.

[bomberjet]

Somebody recently mentioned the state of our highway network is much improved in terms of road surface, shoulder, etc. from recent decades. Which is true.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

With trucking as focused on timing of deliveries as it is, I think that truckers would learn to accept the tolls rather than grind their way through dozens of traffic lights and miss delivery deadlines.

Don't forget about e-logs. They'll happily pay the tolls if it means they get where they are going quicker.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Somebody recently mentioned the state of our highway network is much improved in terms of road surface, shoulder, etc. from recent decades. Which is true.

Was me--also road alignment. Corners are a lot better. I'm really hoping the deficit doesn't derail progress, but the last NDP government was spending more on infrastructure than the PCs, so I'm thinking not.