AUSTIN | Misc. Discussions - No Politics

[zrx299]

Originally Posted by Novacek

So for that subset of the population, what's the solution?

Arrest them and throw them in jail ($)
Then haul them up before a judge ($)
Throw them in prison ($)
Then let them out in 30 days, and a day later, repeat the entire process over again.

If you are able-bodied/minded and you refuse help, then you get what's coming to you. The current situation has gone on long enough.

You can spend money on dual solutions at the same time: 1) helping the people who want help, and 2) stemming the flow of the "others" who just drifted here to take advantage of the current environment. The second piece is equally as important as the first, otherwise you're throwing endless money away by creating a never-ending problem with the message of "hey just go to Austin, they'll take care of all your needs and you dont have to do a thing!"

One just has to look at our southern border for a larger version of that playing out right now. No deterrent = Services get overwhelmed and things quickly spiral out of control.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by zrx299

If you are able-bodied/minded and you refuse help, then you get what's coming to you. The current situation has gone on long enough.

You can spend money on dual solutions at the same time: 1) helping the people who want help, and 2) stemming the flow of the "others" who just drifted here to take advantage of the current environment. The second piece is equally as important as the first, otherwise you're throwing endless money away by creating a never-ending problem with the message of "hey just go to Austin, they'll take care of all your needs and you dont have to do a thing!"

One just has to look at our southern border for a larger version of that playing out right now. No deterrent = Services get overwhelmed and things quickly spiral out of control.

To repeat, what is “what’s coming to you”?

What is “stemming the flow”?

[paul78701]

Originally Posted by zrx299

The others who just want a carefree life of zero responsibilities and the equivalent of a tax-free minimum wage job panhandling the highway intersections & offramps can move along.

You're making it sound as if there are people who want to be homeless. Nobody wants to be homeless.

Originally Posted by zrx299

Parallel to this are other cities who take advantage of southern cities like Austin by giving their transients a free one-way bus ticket.

I've heard this claim repeated ad nauseam. It's become one of those things that people hear and then repeat without giving any thought as to whether or not there is any evidence to back it up. If it's not already obvious, I question whether or not there is any evidence to back up this claim.

[ahealy]

I agree with Paul and others, there are great points on each side. I personally will be voting for B due to how it's destroying the local ecosystem with the massive amounts of litter in most of our green spaces (I realize it might just divert that waste to other areas).

When we look at homelessness, it is almost always a dual diagnosis--mental illness & drug addiction. I feel for each person I see absolutely struggling to make it through the day and this current set-up is absolutely not a helpful solution for them. I sometimes feel as if certain friends will post all about how we "must keep camping legal" blah blah blah and it just feels like an attempt to grab social brownie points and not really understanding this grave catastrophe.

It truly is hurting the city and especially downtown. The ritz is gone, mainly due to specialized screenings slowly moving to S. Lamar over time + pandemic final nail. How many more will eventually do the same overtime?

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by paul78701

You're making it sound as if there are people who want to be homeless. Nobody wants to be homeless.



I've heard this claim repeated ad nauseam. It's become one of those things that people hear and then repeat without giving any thought as to whether or not there is any evidence to back it up. If it's not already obvious, I question whether or not there is any evidence to back up this claim.

1. some people absolutely want to be homeless

2. WELL over 50% of the homeless here are from out of the city

3. if you really gave any effort to interact with those who are dealing with this, 1&2 would be obvious to you. talk to an EMT/firefighter with APD/nurse etc. talk to people who work at a shelter. if you want to take the risk, talk to the homeless themselves.

[StoOgE]

Originally Posted by lonewolf

1. some people absolutely want to be homeless

2. WELL over 50% of the homeless here are from out of the city

3. if you really gave any effort to interact with those who are dealing with this, 1&2 would be obvious to you. talk to an EMT/firefighter with APD/nurse etc. talk to people who work at a shelter. if you want to take the risk, talk to the homeless themselves.

The risk? GTFO out of here. My dad was a preacher and did homeless outreach my entire adult life. The vast vast majority of homeless people are extremely nice, friendly people. There are people with mental illness and there are people with anger management issues, that is absolutely true.

They are not generally speaking dangerous or any more dangerous than people who have money. They have a hard life and that often leads to them becoming hardened, but talk to Mobile Loaves and Fishes, talk to TOOF, talk to anyone involved in the multiple charities that have been helping for generations.

I would also like a citation for "50% of them aren't from here" because that feels like tales from my ass internet citation.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by StoOgE

The risk? GTFO out of here. My dad was a preacher and did homeless outreach my entire adult life. The vast vast majority of homeless people are extremely nice, friendly people. There are people with mental illness and there are people with anger management issues, that is absolutely true.

They are not generally speaking dangerous or any more dangerous than people who have money. They have a hard life and that often leads to them becoming hardened, but talk to Mobile Loaves and Fishes, talk to TOOF, talk to anyone involved in the multiple charities that have been helping for generations.

I would also like a citation for "50% of them aren't from here" because that feels like tales from my ass internet citation.

yeah interacting with homeless people is higher variance than your average person. I can understand how someone would prefer to speak with an AFD firefighter or a shelter volunteer vs approaching a homeless encampment.

I said well over 50% are not from here. My citation is go out and talk to people working firsthand with the situation.

[paul78701]

Originally Posted by lonewolf

1. some people absolutely want to be homeless

Bullshit. Some people may not want to accept help or simply have a difficult time accepting help for various reasons. Some of this may be due to mental health, drugs, being embarrassed, or other issues. But nobody WANTS to be homeless.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

2. WELL over 50% of the homeless here are from out of the city

Correlation does not equal causation. I was doubting the claims that other cities buy one way tickets for homeless to send them here. Not the percentage of homeless that are from outside of Austin. For what it's worth, I also doubt this "over 50%" claim. Anecdotal stories are not the same as actual surveys/evidence.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

3. if you really gave any effort to interact with those who are dealing with this, 1&2 would be obvious to you. talk to an EMT/firefighter with APD/nurse etc. talk to people who work at a shelter. if you want to take the risk, talk to the homeless themselves.

You have no reason to assume that I know nothing about homeless people and then subsequently be an insulting asshole.

Edit: Another point, homeless people are more than those that are seen on the streets. You can't just speak to the random homeless person on the street and get a complete picture of the entire homeless population throughout the city.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by paul78701

Bullshit. Some people may not want to accept help or simply have a difficult time accepting help for various reasons. Some of this may be due to mental health, drugs, being embarrassed, or other issues. But nobody WANTS to be homeless.


Correlation does not equal causation. I was doubting the claims that other cities buy one way tickets for homeless to send them here. Not the percentage of homeless that are from outside of Austin. For what it's worth, I also doubt this "over 50%" claim. Anecdotal stories are not the same as actual surveys/evidence.


You have no reason to assume that I know nothing about homeless people and then subsequently be an insulting asshole.

Edit: Another point, homeless people are more than those that are seen on the streets. You can't just speak to the random homeless person on the street and get a complete picture of the entire homeless population throughout the city.

I feel strongly that some people do want to be homeless. I think there is a lot of fear that seeps in when you live in a high stress environment that results in people just wanting to burrow vs rising above their peers.

our one way bus system has been the center of several lawsuits and documentaries. it's not a secret. here is a link i found after 5 seconds of googling.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-country-study

I agree with your edit regarding sample size and forming opinions. If your dad is still with us his opinion would be a valuable one.

[lonewolf]

having firsthand experience with community first i can say it is an incredible project and people from all over the world fly in to learn how they can emulate it.

[drummer]

Super complicated, to say the least. While I don't have a catch-all solution to the problem, I do think that the public camping along the river, sidewalks, under bridges, etc., is damaging to the city. I don't think folks should be thrown in jail or fined for being homeless, but we have to keep the city functional, safe, and clean as well.

I've been fortunate enough to be involved in a handful of organizations which work with folks in these situations. It's amazing how much people light up when they see that others see them as human rather than only a nuisance to society. There will always be folks who want to "work the system" and take handouts, but in my experience, those folks are few and far between. Most people genuinely want to get back on their feet. Those who do have mental issues and/or drug addictions are more complicated. I'm not an expert there, but I have experience with family members who have refused help from loved ones, much less strangers. It's very painful and difficult for all sides when folks simply do not want help because their addiction is so controlling.

[JAM]

Originally Posted by drummer

Super complicated, to say the least. While I don't have a catch-all solution to the problem, I do think that the public camping along the river, sidewalks, under bridges, etc., is damaging to the city. I don't think folks should be thrown in jail or fined for being homeless, but we have to keep the city functional, safe, and clean as well.

It is damaging to the city. I know traveling sales managers who visit multiple accounts a day all over TX and get asked about it, wondering how bad it is and are afraid to come here for tourism from rumors (what ever you want to call it) they hear. And there is the pollution thing mentioned. Its in Lady Bird Lake - like never before.

And its damaging to the people in those tents.

As far as the getting fined and thrown in jail - this sort of talk is being spread by the city council, as if it will happen to every single one of them. The cops or hotel/condo security guards usually just ask them to move along, no tickets, no jail. For most part, its a scare tactic used to get you not to vote.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by JAM

And its damaging to the people in those tents.

More damaging than living in those _exact same tents_ hidden further back in the greenbelt? Or more damaging than not even having a tent at all, and crawling into a storm sewer somewhere and risking drowning?

Originally Posted by JAM

As far as the getting fined and thrown in jail - this sort of talk is being spread by the city council, as if it will happen to every single one of them. The cops or hotel/condo security guards usually just ask them to move along, no tickets, no jail. For most part, its a scare tactic used to get you not to vote.

This claim just doesn't make any sense. So we need a law to make it illegal, but we won't actually arrest anyone, we swear. We'll just ask them to move along 200 feet to another street. And this is going to somehow cleanup the streets.

If you want to clean up the streets by arresting everyone, own it. We'll debate that on its own merits.

But if you claim no one is going to be arrested, just going to "move", where are they going to move? How is that going to prevent pollution?

[JAM]

The cops have plenty of problems besides arresting homeless people, last thing they want to do. Grab the data on how many homeless arrests there were before we were not allowed to camp in public places - compare to other arrests. Its bull-roar to claim cops are gonna throw them all in jail. right........

When cops make arrests, these are the arrest they will be making : https://texasscorecard.com/local/aus...ing-dangerous/

Bottom line: City councils job is to make sure the parks can be enjoyed by all and to fix the homeless problem - which effects the city as a whole. Time for them to do their job. I read plenty of accounts where this is getting done for less than 100k a person - follow that model. Plenty of non-homeless people living on far less than 100K a year. Adapt, Improvise, Overcome.

[zrx299]

Originally Posted by Novacek

More damaging than living in those _exact same tents_ hidden further back in the greenbelt? Or more damaging than not even having a tent at all, and crawling into a storm sewer somewhere and risking drowning?



This claim just doesn't make any sense. So we need a law to make it illegal, but we won't actually arrest anyone, we swear. We'll just ask them to move along 200 feet to another street. And this is going to somehow cleanup the streets.

If you want to clean up the streets by arresting everyone, own it. We'll debate that on its own merits.

But if you claim no one is going to be arrested, just going to "move", where are they going to move? How is that going to prevent pollution?

I see lots of rebuttal questions from you with nothing of actual substance. Is this all you do? Are you one of those people who just likes to argue and poke holes in other people’s thoughts without ever offering up your own?

Reading your posts makes me think you’re somehow in favor of keeping the current situation in tact because “doing anything will be futile.” (paraphrasing)

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by zrx299

I see lots of rebuttal questions from you with nothing of actual substance. Is this all you do? Are you one of those people who just likes to argue and poke holes in other people’s thoughts without ever offering up your own?

Reading your posts makes me think you’re somehow in favor of keeping the current situation in tact because “doing anything will be futile.” (paraphrasing)

Nothing of substance?
I claim that living in a tent is not "more damaging" than drowning in a sewer. Are you claiming that it is?

That's a really shitty paraphrase, since I said nothing of the sort.

Buy more hotels. That's not "anything will be futile"

[StoOgE]

You know what, if this is going to be allowed to go on, I'm just gonna throw down my gauntlet.

Homelessness is the end-result of an increadibly wealthy society that has a winner take all mentality that views poverty as something that is in some way earned or deserved. We tell ourselves this because those of us who are extremely rich like to also believe that our wealth is 100% earned by the individual and luck or fortune of what circumstances you were born into had nothing to do with it.

It means we ignore the actual causes of homelessness, but what we really dont ever want to do is look at the abject failure of our society in the face, so we would rather arrest people, break up camps and shove them into a green belt where things are actually less safe just so we don't have to look at it.

The homeless population in Austin is going up because the cost of living in the city has gotten out of hand and we've done next to nothing to help the problem. Our country at large views illness, mental illness or addiction as a personal failing and not a societal failing despite all science being to the contrary. We have set up an entire society that is based upon rich people having better access to everything, including what is viewed in much of the world as basis rights.

No one should be happy to see homeless encampments under the streets, its a dark mirror on our own society and are complete lack of a social safety net, and making being homeless illegal so that we don't have to look at it is reductio ad absurdum for how utterly selfish we all are. We want to look at the pretty buildings and cool developments that explosive growth bring without dealing seriously with any of the downsides. East Austin looks absolutely nothing like it used to and housing for lower-middle class people let alone poor people is becoming an endangered species in this city. What low-income housing is being built is not actually for low-income people, its for lower-middle class people and even that is often gamed by land-lords renting to graduate students or people who can hide income when they apply.

I fully expect that we will reinstate the camping ban with zero plan as to what to do to tackle poverty in our society because I think most people just don't want to see people that they don't view as human on a daily basis so they can go on with their lives guilt free.

[IluvATX]

Originally Posted by StoOgE

You know what, if this is going to be allowed to go on, I'm just gonna throw down my gauntlet.

Homelessness is the end-result of an increadibly wealthy society that has a winner take all mentality that views poverty as something that is in some way earned or deserved. We tell ourselves this because those of us who are extremely rich like to also believe that our wealth is 100% earned by the individual and luck or fortune of what circumstances you were born into had nothing to do with it.

It means we ignore the actual causes of homelessness, but what we really dont ever want to do is look at the abject failure of our society in the face, so we would rather arrest people, break up camps and shove them into a green belt where things are actually less safe just so we don't have to look at it.

The homeless population in Austin is going up because the cost of living in the city has gotten out of hand and we've done next to nothing to help the problem. Our country at large views illness, mental illness or addiction as a personal failing and not a societal failing despite all science being to the contrary. We have set up an entire society that is based upon rich people having better access to everything, including what is viewed in much of the world as basis rights.

No one should be happy to see homeless encampments under the streets, its a dark mirror on our own society and are complete lack of a social safety net, and making being homeless illegal so that we don't have to look at it is reductio ad absurdum for how utterly selfish we all are. We want to look at the pretty buildings and cool developments that explosive growth bring without dealing seriously with any of the downsides. East Austin looks absolutely nothing like it used to and housing for lower-middle class people let alone poor people is becoming an endangered species in this city. What low-income housing is being built is not actually for low-income people, its for lower-middle class people and even that is often gamed by land-lords renting to graduate students or people who can hide income when they apply.

I fully expect that we will reinstate the camping ban with zero plan as to what to do to tackle poverty in our society because I think most people just don't want to see people that they don't view as human on a daily basis so they can go on with their lives guilt free.

without joining this shitshow I’ll just agree with this.

[Sigaven]

Originally Posted by IluvATX

without joining this shitshow I’ll just agree with this.

I 100% agree as well. However, I also believe that simply allowing these folks to pitch tents wheverever they damn well please and do whatever the fuck they want (litter, start fires, dart across traffic, harass passers-by etc) is not fair to the rest of the city NOR is it fair to them. These are essentially little villages of anarchy - they HAVE to be held to a system of rules/laws to follow to protect others as well as themselves. A good temporary solution is designated camping areas on city-owned land with 24/7 security, access to restrooms/kitchens and counseling/services. Idk whether or not city council is working on something like that or not, but we simply cannot let the current situation continue.

[We vs us]

Originally Posted by Sigaven

I 100% agree as well. However, I also believe that simply allowing these folks to pitch tents wheverever they damn well please and do whatever the fuck they want (litter, start fires, dart across traffic, harass passers-by etc) is not fair to the rest of the city NOR is it fair to them. These are essentially little villages of anarchy - they HAVE to be held to a system of rules/laws to follow to protect others as well as themselves. A good temporary solution is designated camping areas on city-owned land with 24/7 security, access to restrooms/kitchens and counseling/services. Idk whether or not city council is working on something like that or not, but we simply cannot let the current situation continue.

This has been my stance as well. Nicely said.

And fwiw, I'm thoroughly disgusted that I'm aligned with Matt Mackowiak and the political folks behind Prop B. I don't have any illusions that my vote to reinstate the ban won't be used as a cudgel against other parts of Austin's progressive agenda. It absolutely will. But the homeless situation has to improve, and this is the only vehicle available to take us there.