[Moncton] Centre Avenir Centre | 26.65m |~6 Fl | Completed

[L'homard]

Some good food for thought in everyone's responses.
I'm no expert in public transit. Maybe someone here can tell me how it works in other places, specifically, do transit systems increase capacity as a means of attracting more users, or do they need more users before they increase capacity?
One other question, I'm an infrequent user of Codiac buses, but I do use them on occasion. I get great service where I live, with frequent buses within a minute's walk from my place. I keep hearing about two hours bus trips, including by some in this thread. Can anyone point me to the routes that take longer than an hour, please I only know the route that goes by my house.

[Taeolas]

Public Transit is a classic "Chicken and the Egg" situation. Cities tend to fund transit for their numbers, but often you need to spend more to lure people in. Since transit networks don't pay for themselves, it's a tough call to convince cities to pay more. Especially in NB where the province doesn't chip in to help like the other provinces help their cities.

If you look at Kingston, it's a good example of "If you spend it they will come". I'm just going off the Transit here on SSP, but Kingston heavily invested in their Transit network, pushing it to the next stage (Bus Rapid Transit) about 5-8 years ago, and its use has greatly improved.

SJ, Freddy and Moncton all are having issues with their transit networks, basically being underfunded. I'm sure there will be a big push to implement similar provincial-municipal funding partnerships as other provinces to help them grow to their next phases; but I'm not sure how much it will help.

[MonctonRad]

Here's the Codiac Transpo route map.



Codiac Transpo actually maintains a fairly large (and modern) bus fleet. I think there are as many as 45 busses in the system, which I think is pretty good for a tri-city area of about 120,000 people. Nevertheless, some expansion to the fleet will likely be necessary to accommodate my suggestion below.

The problems with Codiac Transpo are:

1)- famously circuitous routes that meander aimlessly through the region's far flung neighbourhoods.
2)- poor frequency, which reduces considerably in off hours
3)- many non core routes shut down relatively early in the evening
4)- no express busses. Most neighbourhoods require transfers to get downtown.

The meandering routes, transfers and poor frequency are why a 10 minute car ride can turn into an hour or more on the bus.

In order to improve the public's perception of Codiac Transpo, you need to:

1)- establish about 6-7 key express bus routes serving the city's principle neighbourhoods that go directly to the downtown with no transfers. I would nominate Salisbury Road, Mountain Road, Elmwood Drive, Shediac Road, Champlain Street, Amirault Street and Coverdale Road.
2)- I would make service frequency on these core routes every 10 minutes.
3)- service should be maintained from 7AM - 1AM.
4)- neighbourhood routes should connect to each of these core routes, however consideration should be given to using smaller busses on these connecting lines. Service frequency should still be every 10 minutes, but perhaps the hours of service could be less (say 7AM-10PM).
5)- there should be a couple of major spur lines serving the hospitals, universities, industrial parks and Mapleton Road.

For the events centre, the use of special shuttles on events nights to the parking lot at the old Coliseum should be considered. If the event is a hockey game at 7PM, then the shuttles should run from 6PM - 10:30PM (an hour before to an hour after the game). If it's the playoffs and the game goes into overtime, then the service should be maintained as long as needed.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

For the events centre, the use of special shuttles on events nights to the parking lot at the old Coliseum should be considered. If the event is a hockey game at 7PM, then the shuttles should run from 6PM - 10:30PM (an hour before to an hour after the game). If it's the playoffs and the game goes into overtime, then the service should be maintained as long as needed.

For 67s games in Ottawa the shuttles pick up people from Carleton University and begin 90 minutes before puck drop, with the last bus being ~30 minutes after the game. Pretty sure they just use school buses, meaning this could be a venture provided by the Wildcats if needed.

For special events like the Women's World Cup all tickets on gameday allowed for free use of transit.

There are express buses for the Sens games as well but that arena is in the middle of nowhere and is hardly comparable.

[PEI highway guy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Here's the Codiac Transpo route map.



Codiac Transpo actually maintains a fairly large (and modern) bus fleet. I think there are as many as 45 busses in the system, which I think is pretty good for a tri-city area of about 120,000 people. Nevertheless, some expansion to the fleet will likely be necessary to accommodate my suggestion below.

The problems with Codiac Transpo are:

1)- famously circuitous routes that meander aimlessly through the region's far flung neighbourhoods.
2)- poor frequency, which reduces considerably in off hours
3)- many non core routes shut down relatively early in the evening
4)- no express busses. Most neighbourhoods require transfers to get downtown.

The meandering routes, transfers and poor frequency are why a 10 minute car ride can turn into an hour or more on the bus.

In order to improve the public's perception of Codiac Transpo, you need to:

1)- establish about 6-7 key express bus routes serving the city's principle neighbourhoods that go directly to the downtown with no transfers. I would nominate Salisbury Road, Mountain Road, Elmwood Drive, Shediac Road, Champlain Street, Amirault Street and Coverdale Road.
2)- I would make service frequency on these core routes every 10 minutes.
3)- service should be maintained from 7AM - 1AM.
4)- neighbourhood routes should connect to each of these core routes, however consideration should be given to using smaller busses on these connecting lines. Service frequency should still be every 10 minutes, but perhaps the hours of service could be less (say 7AM-10PM).
5)- there should be a couple of major spur lines serving the hospitals, universities, industrial parks and Mapleton Road.

For the events centre, the use of special shuttles on events nights to the parking lot at the old Coliseum should be considered. If the event is a hockey game at 7PM, then the shuttles should run from 6PM - 10:30PM (an hour before to an hour after the game). If it's the playoffs and the game goes into overtime, then the service should be maintained as long as needed.

I like everything you said, My only change would be start the service at 6am, many people go to work for 7am

[MonctonRad]

It's a lazy (and cold) Sunday morning - I have nothing better to do.

Here's my proposal for a simplified route system for Codiac Transpo, covering most of the city and most major attractions and facilities with only seven routes. By pairing down the number of routes and simplifying the routing structure, I think Codiac could easily increase service frequency while using the current inventory of busses.



1- Red Line - serving Mountain Road and the northwest corner of the city. In addition to the downtown, service would include the Moncton Hospital, the Trinity/Mapleton shopping district, Crandall University and the casino (with an extended route to include Magnetic Hill in the summertime).
2- Orange Line - serving the west end and Saint George Blvd. In addition to downtown, it would serve the MID industrial park and parts of Salisbury Road.
3- Green Line - Serving the Lewisville area, McLaughlin Road and and Elmwood Drive out as far as MHS. It would also serve the new retail district on Granite Drive, and would do the loop to Champlain Place as well as downtown.
4- Blue Line - Serving Shediac Road out as far as Harrisville Blvd and ten on to the Caledonia Industrial Park. This route also loops around to Champlain Place before going downtown.
5- Black Line - Goes straight out Champlain Street and then up Aviation Avenue to the GMIA. It also loops around to Champlain Place, going downtown and then on to the Dumont Hospital and UdeM.
6- Purple Line - Does the loop of Amirault Street, Melanson Road, Dieppe Blvd and Chartersville Road. Like the other Dieppe route, it serves Champlain Place, downtown Moncton, the Dumont Hospital and UdeM.
7- Turquoise Line - Does the loop around Pine Glen Road, White Pine Road, Trites Road and Coverdale Road in Riverview. On the Moncton side, in addition to Main Street, this route also serves Assumption Blvd.

Comments:

- Only seven major routes, therefore a lot of people might have to walk a few blocks in order to catch the bus, but this would be compensated for by the fact that service frequency would be greater (ideally every 10 minutes).
- Every route goes to downtown Moncton. No transfers necessary.
- Four of the seven routes service Champlain Place.
- There would be regular Codiac Transpo service to the GMIA
- The two Dieppe routes both serve UdeM and the GDH as well as Champlain Place. I think this routing is ideal.
- The northwest route along Mountain Road (the Red Line) remains very long and circuitous. I think this could be compensated for by doubling the number of busses on this route and providing for clockwise and counterclockwise bus movement.
- I think an eighth major route along the length of Main Street is probably also necessary, extending from the events centre to Champlain Place.

[L'homard]

Lots to digest, which I will do later.
Two quick points which will colour the discussion
- Codiac has a number of new buses already on order. I want to say five new buses but honestly I cannot recall the number. They don't build new buses until they are ordered, and each bus takes well over a year to build, so I'm unsure when the new buses are coming. But I know they've been ordered.
- A high-placed Codiac official tells me there is so little savings by ordering small buses that they, and most municipalities, just order the big ones. That way the new bus can be used in any situation. The little buses cost almost as much as the big ones, and require much, much more maintenance, and are out of service for repairs far more often, I'm told, so they just don't bother with them.
Some might recall Dieppe's route out to the Dover area, which was so sparsely used that they inquired about a small bus. The cost of acquiring, and maintaining, a small bus was so steep, they just paid for free taxi services for citizens on the outskirts to catch a bus closer to the city core.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's a lazy (and cold) Sunday morning - I have nothing better to do.

Here's my proposal for a simplified route system for Codiac Transpo, covering most of the city and most major attractions and facilities with only seven routes. By pairing down the number of routes and simplifying the routing structure, I think Codiac could easily increase service frequency while using the current inventory of busses.



1- Red Line - serving Mountain Road and the northwest corner of the city. In addition to the downtown, service would include the Moncton Hospital, the Trinity/Mapleton shopping district, Crandall University and the casino (with an extended route to include Magnetic Hill in the summertime).
2- Orange Line - serving the west end and Saint George Blvd. In addition to downtown, it would serve the MID industrial park and parts of Salisbury Road.
3- Green Line - Serving the Lewisville area, McLaughlin Road and and Elmwood Drive out as far as MHS. It would also serve the new retail district on Granite Drive, and would do the loop to Champlain Place as well as downtown.
4- Blue Line - Serving Shediac Road out as far as Harrisville Blvd and ten on to the Caledonia Industrial Park. This route also loops around to Champlain Place before going downtown.
5- Black Line - Goes straight out Champlain Street and then up Aviation Avenue to the GMIA. It also loops around to Champlain Place, going downtown and then on to the Dumont Hospital and UdeM.
6- Purple Line - Does the loop of Amirault Street, Melanson Road, Dieppe Blvd and Chartersville Road. Like the other Dieppe route, it serves Champlain Place, downtown Moncton, the Dumont Hospital and UdeM.
7- Turquoise Line - Does the loop around Pine Glen Road, White Pine Road, Trites Road and Coverdale Road in Riverview. On the Moncton side, in addition to Main Street, this route also serves Assumption Blvd.

Comments:

- Only seven major routes, therefore a lot of people might have to walk a few blocks in order to catch the bus, but this would be compensated for by the fact that service frequency would be greater (ideally every 10 minutes).
- Every route goes to downtown Moncton. No transfers necessary.
- Four of the seven routes service Champlain Place.
- There would be regular Codiac Transpo service to the GMIA
- The two Dieppe routes both serve UdeM and the GDH as well as Champlain Place. I think this routing is ideal.
- The northwest route along Mountain Road (the Red Line) remains very long and circuitous. I think this could be compensated for by doubling the number of busses on this route and providing for clockwise and counterclockwise bus movement.
- I think an eighth major route along the length of Main Street is probably also necessary, extending from the events centre to Champlain Place.

So are you cutting out some runs all together, or would other runs like the Colisium run still exist since most people on that run it would not be just a block, or two walk it would be a 20-30 minute walk to any of the potential stops maybe even more, and there is the Salisbury run there are people who use that run despite not being as many since they did cut the White frost village stop. You also cut one of two Riverview runs that seems to be well used.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Scarface

So are you cutting out some runs all together, or would other runs like the Colisium run still exist since most people on that run it would not be just a block, or two walk it would be a 20-30 minute walk to any of the potential stops maybe even more, and there is the Salisbury run there are people who use that run despite not being as many since they did cut the White frost village stop. You also cut one of two Riverview runs that seems to be well used.

The map I drew up on Sunday morning was purely for demonstration purposes. I included only seven routes, which would be a bare minimum for the city to survive on. Other routes could certainly be justifiably added (Riverview East and a second Mountain Road route targeting the Hildegarde and Ayer Avenue areas for example, and, as I suggested, a cross town express from the events centre to Champlain Place).

This would boost the total number of routes up to 10. Codiac Transpo currently runs 22 routes meandering aimlessly through the far flung subdivisions of the city. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you reduce the number of routes by half, you could double the number of busses serving the remaining routes, thus doubling service frequency.

In addition, by making the existing routes less circuitous, this would increase the speed of travel. By straightening out the routes and eliminating transfers, an hour trip downtown from the casino might only take 20 minutes - a vast improvement.

If I could be guaranteed no more than a 10 minute wait for a bus, no transfers and no more than a 20-30 minute bus ride to where I want to go, then I might be a lot more inclined to take the bus than I am now...........

[Monctoncore]

In other news they have now installed the glass on the boards in the arena.

[Ammn_guy]

One off the biggest complaints i hear is if you live in the north end, and work down town its a 3 transfer pain in the ass.

If they brought back the old express route that had no transfers between mountain rd--> mall (blue/green) and extended it to say evergreen gorge intersection maybe by looping in thru lonsdale.. it would really help north end commuters out.

When they went to the separate blue green routes.. alot people i know that worked downtown and had a monthly pass, they started car pooling instead.

EDIT* this would be similar to your "Red line" as you illustrated MONCTONRAD

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The map I drew up on Sunday morning was purely for demonstration purposes. I included only seven routes, which would be a bare minimum for the city to survive on. Other routes could certainly be justifiably added (Riverview East and a second Mountain Road route targeting the Hildegarde and Ayer Avenue areas for example, and, as I suggested, a cross town express from the events centre to Champlain Place).

This would boost the total number of routes up to 10. Codiac Transpo currently runs 22 routes meandering aimlessly through the far flung subdivisions of the city. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you reduce the number of routes by half, you could double the number of busses serving the remaining routes, thus doubling service frequency.

In addition, by making the existing routes less circuitous, this would increase the speed of travel. By straightening out the routes and eliminating transfers, an hour trip downtown from the casino might only take 20 minutes - a vast improvement.

If I could be guaranteed no more than a 10 minute wait for a bus, no transfers and no more than a 20-30 minute bus ride to where I want to go, then I might be a lot more inclined to take the bus than I am now...........

[RedBall]

The surface got a lot brighter today.. stadium lights are powered up.

[IMG][/IMG]

A better shot...

[IMG][/IMG]

[habskilla]

Ran into George today and passed on the comments here about how it was his fault that he didn't include a parking structure in the quote.

He shook his head, grinned, and walked away...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by habskilla

Ran into George today and passed on the comments here about how it was his fault that he didn't include a parking structure in the quote.

He shook his head, grinned, and walked away...

I never personally blamed George LeBlanc for the lack of a parking plan for the events centre.

George was mayor of the city at a very difficult time with Harper as PM and Alward as premier, neither of which were inclined to spend federal or provincial money on infrastructure projects in the Moncton area. What George was able to accomplish in the prevailing political climate of the time was truly impressive. We owe George a great debt of gratitude in shepherding the events centre project along to the approval stage. This was tough enough, without adding in another "ask" for federal and provincial money for a parking structure.

I also think Dawn Arnold has done a fine job as far as being Moncton's current mayor. She also has tremendous fiscal challenges to deal with BUT the current political climate that she is working in is a damned sight more friendly than what George had to deal with. She has great allies in Cathy Rogers (provincial finance minister), Brian Gallant (Premier), Ginette Pettipas-Taylor (federal health minister) and Dominic LeBlanc (federal fisheries minister), the latter of whom has the ear of the Prime Minister as Justin Trudeau's best friend. Now is the time to be moving forward with a parking strategy for the core. Now is the time to be looking for federal and provincial funding for such a strategy. The timing will never get better than this. I have a fear though that Dawn is too wrapped up in active transportation and public transit to really pay close attention to the parking file. I have nothing against bike paths and an improved transit system, but the character and climate of Moncton mean that most people would rather drive themselves. I'm not sure how much Dawn appreciates this. To ignore this reality threatens the success of the events centre and the entire renaissance of the downtown core.

[flyer99]

Originally Posted by L'homard

I've been to rinks in Boston, Montreal, Toronto Sarajevo NY and Halifax.
None has public parking included on the property to any degree.
Miraculously, those cities' rinks haven't gone out of business for lack of customers,
In time, visitors to our events centre will adapt as well.
For the love of God, for $2.50 I can get chauffered to the events centre on a city bus in less than one hour with wifi included. A taxi home afterwards costs 15 bucks.
My God, how will I ever survive?

Problem with your statement is that the cities that you quoted (along with others that have no adjacent surface parking) have many parking garages and pedways to get to and from the event centres. They also have good and reliable transit systems.

[L'homard]

You are certainly correct, Flyer.
Which brings my other question: which comes first, improved public transit in the expectation it will attract more users, or attract more users first and only then improve the transit system?
I don't know the answer.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by L'homard

You are certainly correct, Flyer.
Which brings my other question: which comes first, improved public transit in the expectation it will attract more users, or attract more users first and only then improve the transit system?
I don't know the answer.

Improove transit because not only will it add users if it's more reliable. But it will keep curent users, or

[MonctonRad]

Letter from the Moncton Wildcats issued to season's ticket holders (of which I am one) earlier today:

http://files.constantcontact.com/8f1...46b60ea742.pdf

The Wildcats have officially signed a contract with SMG to become the primary tenant of the new downtown events centre. It's a done deal - the Cats are on the move.........

Irving continues on in the letter to say that "they continue to work with private lot owners and the city of Moncton on a parking and transportation plan."

Personally I remain hopeful that some accomodation will be reached to find a parking solution for seasons ticket holders. While occasional ticket holders may be inclined to go downtown early, make an evening of it, and grab a meal before the game or a drink after the game, I imagine most season's ticket holders would be more inclined most of the time just to go directly to the arena and go home immediately afterwards. If season's ticket holders don't have assured parking, they may think seriously about giving up their tickets.........

[L'homard]

I'd love to get more details on the agreement but given these are two private parties, I doubt very much we'll ever learn much more.

[JHikka]

Supposedly a 20 year contract, per Neil Hodge of T&T.