The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Instead of focusing solely on Canada' national GHG emissions we should be taking into account the global GHG emissions....

Indeed. Let's see how the whataboutism brigade reacts to the EU proposing carbon tariffs in their latest plan:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...on-border-tax/

I've always maintained that one way or another, GHGs will eventually get priced. It starts with targeting China. But eventually, they will get around to everybody else. Heck, the Americans don't want to do much domestically on climate change, but they aren't beyond slapping on carbon tariffs themselves:

https://www.ft.com/content/c69e21a6-...4-4c2fa05ab74a

So the question becomes, why should all our manufacturing exporters suffer tariffs from other markets just to bolster the marginal profits of a few sectors and companies that don't want to cut emissions?

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ah. So instead of at least trying to come up with an imperfect agreement with the other dog owners that might just reduce some of the shit on the sidewalk we should simply give up and let Rover shit anywhere he wants?

I've said before and I'll say it again. I can't understand being this much of a selfish prick. But what I really don't understand is the resistance to all the basic infrastructure stuff that would improve the Quality of Life of selfish pricks everywhere. It's almost like y'all want to give Rover a laxative because you think that will teach the guy with a dozen Labs.

Nailed it.

Its the hand grenade vote. Always has been. Its Trumpism. Its the ultimate schadenfreude.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by rofina

Nailed it.

Its the hand grenade vote. Always has been. Its Trumpism. Its the ultimate schadenfreude.

It also seems that there is an element of greed involved where the argument is that we should cash in because China and India are anyways. Fuck the world, we should just mine coal and oil for as long as we can before it becomes obsolete.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

It also seems that there is an element of greed involved where the argument is that we should cash in because China and India are anyways. Fuck the world, we should just mine coal and oil for as long as we can before it becomes obsolete.

Except that the Chinese aren't stupid. They went flat out to dominate solar PV manufacturing. They are now doing the same for electric vehicles. They are more than happy to have us keep dreaming of mining oil and coal in perpetuity while they set themselves up to dominate the sectors that will be important in the 21st century.

I'm okay with greed. It's what drives capitalism. But we need to distinguish sectoral or personal interest from national interest. Giving up competitiveness in emerging sectors to protect sectors that will see reduced demand in the future is not in our national interest.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ah. So instead of at least trying to come up with an imperfect agreement with the other dog owners that might just reduce some of the shit on the sidewalk we should simply give up and let Rover shit anywhere he wants?

I've said before and I'll say it again. I can't understand being this much of a selfish prick. But what I really don't understand is the resistance to all the basic infrastructure stuff that would improve the Quality of Life of selfish pricks everywhere. It's almost like y'all want to give Rover a laxative because you think that will teach the guy with a dozen Labs.

Yeah, it's almost as if they think that people aren't capable of doing more than two things at once. It is entirely possible for someone to pick up their own dog's shit while advocating that the person with 28 dogs picks up or is forced to pick up their shit as well.

[Acajack]

Kinda related but I wonder if anyone has noticed an upsurge in interest in electric vehicles in their entourage.

We're not in the market for a new vehicle this year but every single friend or family member that is right now is looking at electric. And the vast majority are following through - two friends just signed in recent days.

My sense is that if automakers can keep up (I know that's a big if) the shift towards electric vehicles could take place much sooner than expected.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

It also seems that there is an element of greed involved where the argument is that we should cash in because China and India are anyways. Fuck the world, we should just mine coal and oil for as long as we can before it becomes obsolete.

I think we are way beyond that mindset, or at least we have adopted the mindset that ghg emissions need to be significantly reduced when producing oil/nat gas... not speaking for members in this thread, but industry itself.

I think naysayers need to realize and adopt the attitude that this transition to green energy really essentially drives competitiveness, which in turn drives innovation in existing industry, at the same time introducing new industry to the energy mix. Alberta is already well underway with this transition, by way of billions of dollars of private capital already being spent on solar/wind, cogen upgrades, hydrogen development, carbon capture & storage, etc. all to meet said goals of net zero by 2050.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Yeah, it's almost as if they think that people aren't capable of doing more than two things at once. It is entirely possible for someone to pick up their own dog's shit while advocating that the person with 28 dogs picks up or is forced to pick up their shit as well.

Of course it is, if it makes the person feel self actualized or virtuous or whatever. But it is delusional to think it is having any impact on the shit accumulating in the dog park.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Except that the Chinese aren't stupid. They went flat out to dominate solar PV manufacturing. They are now doing the same for electric vehicles. They are more than happy to have us keep dreaming of mining oil and coal in perpetuity while they set themselves up to dominate the sectors that will be important in the 21st century.

I'm okay with greed. It's what drives capitalism. But we need to distinguish sectoral or personal interest from national interest. Giving up competitiveness in emerging sectors to protect sectors that will see reduced demand in the future is not in our national interest.

Except it is mostly for export. The Chinese aren’t putting Chinese made solar panels on their own houses, they’re buying ridiculously cheap coal powered electricity and letting taxpayers in the West subsidize Chinese exports.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My sense is that if automakers can keep up (I know that's a big if) the shift towards electric vehicles could take place much sooner than expected.

Most likely. If you have politicians committing to a 2035 ban, it's because the automakers have told them that's the date they'll be fully electric already.

We're seeing some of this sausage making in Europe right now. The EU is studying a union wide 2035 ban, in line what we and a large chunk of the US are doing. A lot of the German automakers are onboard and planning to hit targets earlier. The French are the holdouts because their carmakers have been behind on getting battery supply going.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Except that the Chinese aren't stupid. They went flat out to dominate solar PV manufacturing. They are now doing the same for electric vehicles. They are more than happy to have us keep dreaming of mining oil and coal in perpetuity while they set themselves up to dominate the sectors that will be important in the 21st century.

I'm okay with greed. It's what drives capitalism. But we need to distinguish sectoral or personal interest from national interest. Giving up competitiveness in emerging sectors to protect sectors that will see reduced demand in the future is not in our national interest.

The goal posts always shift once you bring up China’s commitments for reducing emissions to how they can only do it because they are a totalitarian regime. Itms endless whataboutism and defeatism intended to thwart any progress or action meant to get our own house in order. Complacent greed and laziness it seems.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Except it is mostly for export. The Chinese aren’t putting Chinese made solar panels on their own houses, they’re buying ridiculously cheap coal powered electricity and letting taxpayers in the West subsidize Chinese exports.

I'm starting to wonder if you're intentionally looking to spread misinformation or just too lazy to Google.



Yes. They export a ton of solar. But they install more domestically than the EU and US combined.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm starting to wonder if you're intentionally looking to spread misinformation or just too lazy to Google.



Yes. They export a ton of solar. But they install more domestically than the EU and US combined.

I was clearly talking about residential installation, but if you want to talk about electricity solar has a 3.9% market share, compared to 7.6% in Japan, 8.6% in Germany, 7.5% in India, and 4% in the UK. Meanwhile coal has a 62% share in China.

[acottawa]

https://www.reuters.com/article/chin...-idUSL3N2L12A9

BEIJING, March 3 (Reuters) - China’s coal consumption is expected to continue rising in 2021 despite Beijing’s pledges to boost the use of clean energy and curb greenhouse gas emissions, the China National Coal Association said on Wednesday.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Yeah, it's almost as if they think that people aren't capable of doing more than two things at once. It is entirely possible for someone to pick up their own dog's shit while advocating that the person with 28 dogs picks up or is forced to pick up their shit as well.

Yeah, as long as we keep in mind that for that person, picking up their own dog's shit is much less important than trying to force the person with 28 dogs to do something.

In other words, if it looks like the person with 28 dogs isn't going to pick up their dogs' shits, then if the cost of picking up your own dog's shit is substantial, I can see the argument for not bothering. (Not saying we're there, but we could be eventually.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Kinda related but I wonder if anyone has noticed an upsurge in interest in electric vehicles in their entourage.

We're not in the market for a new vehicle this year but every single friend or family member that is right now is looking at electric. And the vast majority are following through - two friends just signed in recent days.

My sense is that if automakers can keep up (I know that's a big if) the shift towards electric vehicles could take place much sooner than expected.

I see this too. BTW I would absolutely not buy a new ICE car anymore, and advise anyone (especially in Quebec) the same.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

In other words, if it looks like the person with 28 dogs isn't going to pick up their dogs' shits, then if the cost of picking up your own dog's shit is substantial, I can see the argument for not bothering. (Not saying we're there, but we could be eventually.)

Most countries will basically do what is most economical, plus there is this tragedy of the commons aspect (you might get screwed anyway due to somebody else even if you sacrifice the most). Some will say they think this is a very important issue and promise to do better but then not actually follow through much, like Canada or the US up until today. Others that seem like they're doing a good job are sometimes just the countries that coincidentally produced lower CO2 emissions, the places losing heavy industry or population.

Given this reality I think we need better energy sources and storage mechanisms. I'm not against "policing" but I don't think it'll work well in the long run. And China is not really listening to Western media or moral panic at all.

Also we should accept that the world's solution will be imperfect since we have never before done the kind of coordination that people are now demanding. Maybe in limited domains like reducing CFC emissions but not when it comes to the most basic energy sources. Thankfully if you look at say UN reports on climate change costs they're generally not actually very high relative to projected economic growth (most people in the "climate change is a serious problem" camp more or less ignore these reports).

Or maybe a major volcano will erupt and we'll have a completely different set of issues for a while.

[ssiguy]

At least in the West, much of the blame for our current problems in terms of our polluting electrical production can be squarely put at the feet of Suzuki and friends.

The world has a zero emitting safe energy source and it's called nuclear. Nuclear energy production began to soar in the 60s & 70s until the environmentalists got their hands on it and Three Mile Island and Chernobyl were just what they had been waiting for to bring it's development to a halt. Of course the only alternative at the time was hydro which most countries have a limited potential of meaning the coal plants kept on burning.

Now these idiots are doing the same thing thinking every country can simply go solar and wind and soon we will be singing Kumbaya and communing with the birds. For any major consumer sectors, hydrogen is the only way forward yet they are again against it even when produced thru carbon capture of oil & natural gas and of course by nuclear. The fact that they are also basically zero emissions doesn't seem to matter to them as long as their fine sensibilities remain in tact.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I was clearly talking about residential installation, but if you want to talk about electricity solar has a 3.9% market share, compared to 7.6% in Japan, 8.6% in Germany, 7.5% in India, and 4% in the UK. Meanwhile coal has a 62% share in China.

Originally Posted by acottawa

https://www.reuters.com/article/chin...-idUSL3N2L12A9

BEIJING, March 3 (Reuters) - China’s coal consumption is expected to continue rising in 2021 despite Beijing’s pledges to boost the use of clean energy and curb greenhouse gas emissions, the China National Coal Association said on Wednesday.

Developing economies have growing demand for energy which can't all be met by one source. And developing countries also care about developing their export sectors. These are advanced concepts for the whataboutism brigade, I know.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

I see this too. BTW I would absolutely not buy a new ICE car anymore, and advise anyone (especially in Quebec) the same.

Bit early to write off buying ICE cars entirely. I would at least try and avoid buying something that isn't a hybrid. After 2025 though, one should really start trying to avoid buying something with a tailpipe. Carbon tax will be $95/tonne then. EVs will be either on par or within 10% across most segments. That 10-15% saved on the purchase price is just going to be paid for in depreciation years later.