VIA Rail

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

My fixation on a daily train to major cities has to do with one word that can stop cars, trucks, buses and planes....

W-I-N-T-E-R

Even if we pretend for a second that VIA trains aren't also affected by winter conditions (they are), it still doesn't make up for the routine ability of VIA to be late, delayed, or MIA altogether on its busiest and most profitable routes during any normal operating time.

24 hour delay due to prairie snowstorm:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...irie-snowstorm

The infamous 41 hour delayed Canadian
https://www.narcity.com/en-ca/news/v...ehind-schedule

Winter's extreme weather made trains extremely late, Via Rail reports
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...article675745/

Two anecdotes

• One of my winter trips with VIA from Toronto to Ottawa was delayed five hours during the trip (doubling the travel time). For my suffering they offered me 50% off my next VIA ticket if purchased in the next six months.
• One of my trips on The Ocean was five+ hours late when it arrived in Moncton.

You won't find many bigger supporters of train travel than me but VIA is woefully bad far too often for the service it should be providing.

To its merit, and it's not entirely comparable, I don't think i've ever experienced a delay on any GO train in my experience. If I did it was no more than five minutes.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Canadians have the right to live where ever they choose under the Charter of Rights.

Can you provide a reference to show that? I can't just walk up to a piece of land and say I am going to live here.

If someone with enough money wanted to, they could push a Supreme Court ruling that cutting Via goes against their rights.

How so. Even if I did choose to live in some remote location, I don't have the right of subsidized transportation to my chosen location. Subsidized transportation is provided as a social benefit, not as a constitutional right.

But what about those people in between who are going to those major centres for medical, business, shopping or vacation?

What do they do today? I suspect they either drive or have a friend drive them. We can't expect every farm house to have a train station nearby.

I still feel that chopping the western route in Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina and Winnipeg and run at least once a day too each of these places would have the demand. Maybe not a historic 1950s era 10+ car train, but a 3-5 car train, possibly modern, would be successful.

Other than Edmonton-Calgary (which could support multiple trains a day with proper infrastructure investment), I am not convinced that any of those other routes would be as popular as you are estimating.

If a federal party wants to win, they only need the votes along the Corridor. So, where are they going to invest?

That used to be the case 30 years ago, but with the success of the Bloc Québécois, no one party can get enough votes in Ontario and Quebec alone to form a majority. As a result, they need to look elsewhere for support.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There seem to be a disproportionate number of crazies who do their intercity travel on the bus. While it is not uncommon to hear of incidents involving bus passengers, you rarely hear of any criminality on the train. Train travel is just so much more sophisticated and relaxing compared to the bus. You don't usually have to worry about your seatmate trying to stab you on the train.

Things are changing for the worse out on the western trains...

https://globalnews.ca/news/6551471/v...nce-greyhound/

There was always the potential for a bit of rowdiness in the coach cars, particularly when people hit the booze. But these days, drugs, weapons and a general belligerence are becoming more common.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Even if we pretend for a second that VIA trains aren't also affected by winter conditions (they are), it still doesn't make up for the routine ability of VIA to be late, delayed, or MIA altogether on its busiest and most profitable routes during any normal operating time.

24 hour delay due to prairie snowstorm:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...irie-snowstorm

The infamous 41 hour delayed Canadian
https://www.narcity.com/en-ca/news/v...ehind-schedule

Winter's extreme weather made trains extremely late, Via Rail reports
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...article675745/

Two anecdotes

• One of my winter trips with VIA from Toronto to Ottawa was delayed five hours during the trip (doubling the travel time). For my suffering they offered me 50% off my next VIA ticket if purchased in the next six months.
• One of my trips on The Ocean was five+ hours late when it arrived in Moncton.

You won't find many bigger supporters of train travel than me but VIA is woefully bad far too often for the service it should be providing.

To its merit, and it's not entirely comparable, I don't think i've ever experienced a delay on any GO train in my experience. If I did it was no more than five minutes.

The 41 hour delay was due to an engine failure. The limped it to Capreol, and then had to get another engine up here.

GO is comparable. Yes, they do run a lot on their own tracks, but much of the service is on CN and CP owned tracks. So, what are they doing right that Via should learn from?

Originally Posted by roger1818

Can you provide a reference to show that? I can't just walk up to a piece of land and say I am going to live here.



How so. Even if I did choose to live in some remote location, I don't have the right of subsidized transportation to my chosen location. Subsidized transportation is provided as a social benefit, not as a constitutional right.

It is under the freedom of movement. You may need to pay for the land, but, the government cannot say that you cannot buy there or move there. Constitutional law is a messy thing that I will not dive into, except in saying that if you had deep enough pockets, you might fight for it, and win.

Originally Posted by roger1818

What do they do today? I suspect they either drive or have a friend drive them. We can't expect every farm house to have a train station nearby.

I am not suggesting that.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Other than Edmonton-Calgary (which could support multiple trains a day with proper infrastructure investment), I am not convinced that any of those other routes would be as popular as you are estimating.

The fact that the old Northlander line could run with 3 cars and for the last year or so, add more tells me that if that area could do 1 train a day, anywhere out on the prairies could too. I am not suggesting trains as long as what the Canadian is. The Corridor trains aren't even that long.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That used to be the case 30 years ago, but with the success of the Bloc Québécois, no one party can get enough votes in Ontario and Quebec alone to form a majority. As a result, they need to look elsewhere for support.

You are right, but generally, if you win the Corridor, you win the election. At least that is the case for the last 20 years.

[GoTrans]

[QUOTE=roger1818;9106536]
Other than Edmonton-Calgary (which could support multiple trains a day with proper infrastructure investment), I am not convinced that any of those other routes would be as popular as you are estimating.
[End Quote]

The fact is that there was higher ridership on the CP line between Calgary and Winnipeg than the CN line between Edmonton and Winnipeg prior to the cancellation of the Canadian on CP tracks.

The other fact is that no one has done an Origin / Destionation Demand study including rail service for many many years. As a result no one can say one way or the other that there is sufficient pent up demand to support daily service.

I think a study should be done but the survey should not skew the results in any direction. Recent examples of this are studies done by or for the Ont government that have either ignored rail service as an option or skewed the results to show no support for the service. Consultants usually produce results the client wants.

In the short turn Via could run trains with available idle equipment during COVID on Calgary Winnipeg or Edmonton Winnipeg or Edmonton Saskatoon Regina Winnipeg as an experiment.

[Dengler Avenue]

The other fact is that no one has done an Origin / Destionation Demand study including rail service for many many years. As a result no one can say one way or the other that there is sufficient pent up demand to support daily service.

I think a study should be done but the survey should not skew the results in any direction. Recent examples of this are studies done by or for the Ont government that have either ignored rail service as an option or skewed the results to show no support for the service. Consultants usually produce results the client wants.

You should do one in your free time using VIA's methodology then your own, and let roger1818 evaluate.
I drew up the plan of twinning of 1964 km* of Trans-Canada Highway in Northern Ontario using my spare time between late April and late August after advocating it on SSP for nearly 3 years.

* Well, more like 1482 km (with the rest planned by MTO already), and screw ON-11.

[swimmer_spe]

[QUOTE=GoTrans;9106573]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Other than Edmonton-Calgary (which could support multiple trains a day with proper infrastructure investment), I am not convinced that any of those other routes would be as popular as you are estimating.
[End Quote]

The fact is that there was higher ridership on the CP line between Calgary and Winnipeg than the CN line between Edmonton and Winnipeg prior to the cancellation of the Canadian on CP tracks.

The other fact is that no one has done an Origin / Destionation Demand study including rail service for many many years. As a result no one can say one way or the other that there is sufficient pent up demand to support daily service.

I think a study should be done but the survey should not skew the results in any direction. Recent examples of this are studies done by or for the Ont government that have either ignored rail service as an option or skewed the results to show no support for the service. Consultants usually produce results the client wants.

In the short turn Via could run trains with available idle equipment during COVID on Calgary Winnipeg or Edmonton Winnipeg or Edmonton Saskatoon Regina Winnipeg as an experiment.

It would be interesting if they brought it back and it was more popular than the Northern route.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

You should do one in your free time using VIA's methodology then your own, and let roger1818 evaluate.
I drew up the plan of twinning of 1964 km* of Trans-Canada Highway in Northern Ontario using my spare time between late April and late August after advocating it on SSP for nearly 3 years.

* Well, more like 1482 km (with the rest planned by MTO already), and screw ON-11.

I am already working on that....

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by esquire

Things are changing for the worse out on the western trains...

https://globalnews.ca/news/6551471/v...nce-greyhound/

There was always the potential for a bit of rowdiness in the coach cars, particularly when people hit the booze. But these days, drugs, weapons and a general belligerence are becoming more common.

I read the article. I found this paragraph interesting:

Current and former Via employees like Bisson say that violent incidents like this one used to be rare on board the Canadian. But they say this changed after October 2018, when Greyhound cancelled most of its bus routes in Western Canada, leaving Via Rail as the only major ground transportation option with affordable economy class tickets.

So, all the crazies that used to take the bus have to take the train now. This is the reason why violence is increasing. I guess it's time to reinstitute the bus service...…….

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I read the article. I found this paragraph interesting:



So, all the crazies that used to take the bus have to take the train now. This is the reason why violence is increasing. I guess it's time to reinstitute the bus service...…….

Instead of the governments paying a private operator to run bus service, it should be government run. Ironically, Ontario Northland has expanded it's bus service. Now, you ride it between Winnipeg, Toronto and Ottawa.
https://www.ontarionorthland.ca/en/service-map

I do think that if the province can do it, and provide good connections to others, the they can do it. In places where they can't, the federal government should step in.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Instead of the governments paying a private operator to run bus service, it should be government run. Ironically, Ontario Northland has expanded it's bus service. Now, you ride it between Winnipeg, Toronto and Ottawa.
https://www.ontarionorthland.ca/en/service-map

I do think that if the province can do it, and provide good connections to others, the they can do it. In places where they can't, the federal government should step in.

I think that might be a more worthy use of money.

As Ontario Northland abandoned its rail service that competed with its bus service along the Toronto-Cochrane corridor, it invested that savings in improving bus service to the Northwest region of the province. More people now have safe and reliable bus service. The benefits of an expanded network outweighed the loss of the rail service.

What I'd like to see is a coordination among bus providers - Maritime Bus, Orleans Express, Ontario Northland and Rider Express with a fund to expand service between Winnipeg and Saskatoon - the last gap. Or maybe VIA could focus on connecting people by rail from Winnipeg to Saskatoon/Edmonton, instead of trying to be everything to everybody.

Or maybe some sort of hybrid rail-bus thing, where slower segments of rail could be taken by way of bus provider.

Just spitballing.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

I think that might be a more worthy use of money.

As Ontario Northland abandoned its rail service that competed with its bus service along the Toronto-Cochrane corridor, it invested that savings in improving bus service to the Northwest region of the province. More people now have safe and reliable bus service. The benefits of an expanded network outweighed the loss of the rail service.

What I'd like to see is a coordination among bus providers - Maritime Bus, Orleans Express, Ontario Northland and Rider Express with a fund to expand service between Winnipeg and Saskatoon - the last gap. Or maybe VIA could focus on connecting people by rail from Winnipeg to Saskatoon/Edmonton, instead of trying to be everything to everybody.

Or maybe some sort of hybrid rail-bus thing, where slower segments of rail could be taken by way of bus provider.

Just spitballing.

There are plans to bring back the Northlander. I doubt there will be any reduction of bus service along the route.

Government run services should first be for transportation, and second for tourism. To provide good transportation service, it needs to be on time. GO transit has done something right, and they aren't running exclusively on their own tracks.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is under the freedom of movement. You may need to pay for the land, but, the government cannot say that you cannot buy there or move there. Constitutional law is a messy thing that I will not dive into, except in saying that if you had deep enough pockets, you might fight for it, and win.

There is a general right to move around with a Canada (subject to reasonable limits such as the Atlantic bubble). There is no right to subsidized transportation to wherever you want to live.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There are plans to bring back the Northlander. I doubt there will be any reduction of bus service along the route.

Government run services should first be for transportation, and second for tourism. To provide good transportation service, it needs to be on time. GO transit has done something right, and they aren't running exclusively on their own tracks.

Who has plans to bring back the Northlander?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a general right to move around with a Canada (subject to reasonable limits such as the Atlantic bubble). There is no right to subsidized transportation to wherever you want to live.

This is where the deep pockets come in. No one has tried to fight the cancellation of services as a constitutional right.... yet.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Who has plans to bring back the Northlander?

https://www.nugget.ca/news/local-new...er-rail-fedeli

The PC government.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is where the deep pockets come in. No one has tried to fight the cancellation of services as a constitutional right.... yet.

Deep pockets wouldn’t help. The case would have zero chance of success and appeals courts probably wouldn’t even take the case. It would be the equivalent of Trump’s election challenges (except in Canada losers have to pay legal costs of both sides).

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is where the deep pockets come in. No one has tried to fight the cancellation of services as a constitutional right.... yet.

Because it would be a stupid argument they would definitely lose. Your position here is completely nonsensical if you think about it for even a second - the federal government is not responsible for providing transportation to its citizens. What about anybody that doesn't live within walking distance of a railway station?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is where the deep pockets come in. No one has tried to fight the cancellation of services as a constitutional right.... yet.

Please go ahead and put your money where your mouth is. Plenty of lawyers willing to take your cash.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a general right to move around with a Canada (subject to reasonable limits such as the Atlantic bubble). There is no right to subsidized transportation to wherever you want to live.

Indeed. Some people have a very wide view on 'rights', especially when it involves 'subsidize me'. I'm not sure courts will agree.

Rights of mobility prevent governments from hindering their citizens the legal movement within a country within reason.

The courts may be perhaps inclined to view a withdrawal of the only method of transport to a community (though what constitutes 'community' may be quite debatable) as an abdication of government. If one is in a community only serviced by VIA (i.e. no roads/air service) one may have an argument that their right of mobility is impaired. That being said, I doubt it would apply to something like a Winnipeg-Edmonton train, as one is well-served by other forms of transport on that corridor (roads/air travel).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by wave46

Indeed. Some people have a very wide view on 'rights', especially when it involves 'subsidize me'. I'm not sure courts will agree.

Rights of mobility prevent governments from hindering their citizens the legal movement within a country within reason.

The courts may be perhaps inclined to view a withdrawal of the only method of transport to a community (though what constitutes 'community' may be quite debatable) as an abdication of government. If one is in a community only serviced by VIA (i.e. no roads/air service) one may have an argument that their right of mobility is impaired. That being said, I doubt it would apply to something like a Winnipeg-Edmonton train, as one is well-served by other forms of transport on that corridor (roads/air travel).

That wouldn’t have anything to do with the charter. Possibly the CTA would refuse to approve discontinue if there were no other options. Via already has some mandatory services for isolated communities, the Canadian is not one of them.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That wouldn’t have anything to do with the charter. Possibly the CTA would refuse to approve discontinue if there were no other options. Via already has some mandatory services for isolated communities, the Canadian is not one of them.

I thought the part through Northern ON is considered mandatory.