New Downtown Calgary Arena

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I think in my opinion firepark would be ok, but only as part of a complete giant development, so that the after-game bars and restaurants are built along with the area/stadium. If not then I think it will suck.

Fully agreed. King says they are thinking big. Well, they better be. And they shouldn't do a Bow on us either.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by fusili

Yeah, good plan. Leave a large, dedicated market and move to Tulsa or some crap.

The Flames don't want to pay unnecessary funds if they can avoid it. If pushed enough, they could sell the team to someone else who wants to move it, and then Calgary would be without a team for a while. (Like Minnesota, Denver, and Winnipeg)

I think a major component in having the arena located around downtown rather than Firepark is that there will always be a large amount of people within the vicinity since people live, work, and socialize around the downtown region. Even for non-game goers, people may be more inclined to visit surrounding business around the arena than to go out to the Firepark/Max Bell area if they weren't going to the game. The amount of money that could be spent in a 24hour period has to be greater in the downtown region than the Firepark region, since the former is the heart of the city, while the latter is a destination.

Firepark is a good alternative, but if I was the owners, it would be my least desirable option; trailing behind downtown locations.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Firepark is a good alternative, but if I was the owners, it would be my least desirable option; trailing behind downtown locations.

The above is only true if all things were even, but they are not. Major push back from City on West Village due to opportunity cost. Stampede grounds are horrible due to parking. Would you rather pay $16 for parking (which will increase) or go for a bite to eat? The attractiveness for the City of Firepark, in addition to the positives already mentioned, is the rejuvenation factor that a major commercial, entertainment, sports and residential development would have at Firepark and the MaxBell lands.

[Calgarian]

The Flames aren't going to leave Calgary, they make way more money here than they would in any other market (aside from another Canadian city) and they know that.

Firepark has the room and could logistically work, there is nothing in the area though so I really, really don't want it going there. They could build up an arena district, but that's a lot of work and outside game night, those bars and restaurants would all be closed as there is no one in the area to make them viable at any other time. I give Firepark a 5% chance of happening.

[bap1989]

Isn't the point of revitalizing the downtown to make it more vibrant during all hours of the day. I disagree about the opportunity cost of putting the new arena in the west village, since if you only build condo and office towers and force people to leave downtown for entertainment the whole idea of revitalization is moot. In my mind the building the arena in the west village presents the city with a great opportunity to rehabilite the area (road realignment, land rehabilitation, kickstart development) without providing funds directly to the Flames ownership. I guess that's why I'm so confused with the city's statement that West Village would be nuts.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by bap1989

Isn't the point of revitalizing the downtown to make it more vibrant during all hours of the day. I disagree about the opportunity cost of putting the new arena in the west village, since if you only build condo and office towers and force people to leave downtown for entertainment the whole idea of revitalization is moot. In my mind the building the arena in the west village presents the city with a great opportunity to rehabilite the area (road realignment, land rehabilitation, kickstart development) without providing funds directly to the Flames ownership. I guess that's why I'm so confused with the city's statement that West Village would be nuts.

The point is they anticipate they would need 12000 residents (I think that was the number) in order to recoup the money spend through a CRL. If they have a large amount of that land as a stadium / arena complex, that would probably be about half the room required and would eliminate the possibility of having that many residents.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The point is they anticipate they would need 12000 residents (I think that was the number) in order to recoup the money spend through a CRL. If they have a large amount of that land as a stadium / arena complex, that would probably be about half the room required and would eliminate the possibility of having that many residents.

What Calgarian is saying is that if the arena, stadium and fieldhouse project went in there, there wouldn't be any room for the 12,000 people, which were the ones needed to keep the area from being a ghost town when games were not on.

Max Bell lands, on the other hand, in addition to Firepark, are massive, and would have fantastic residential opportunities for 15,000 people in addition to the commercial, sports and entertainment district being envisioned.

[Socguy]

We should be careful about thinking that simply plunking an arena down somewhere will cause rejuvenation. It won't, unless a great deal of care and attention is paid from the design through the construction in both the building and the surrounding area.

This leads to higher construction costs and what incentive would the Flames have to pay those costs? Why would they not simply plunk down a fancy concrete shell surrounded by acres and acres of parking? The only way the extra money gets spent is if the city kicks in. Right now, that's not going to happen.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Socguy

We should be careful about thinking that simply plunking an arena down somewhere will cause rejuvenation. It won't, unless a great deal of care and attention is paid from the design through the construction in both the building and the surrounding area.

Obviously.

Originally Posted by Socguy

This leads to higher construction costs and what incentive would the Flames have to pay those costs? Why would they not simply plunk down a fancy concrete shell surrounded by acres and acres of parking? The only way the extra money gets spent is if the city kicks in. Right now, that's not going to happen.

The city and community has say in the design. Regarding higher construction costs for the arena itself, I think you're confused. Any other development is a golden egg for the Flames owners if done well (think of the Edmonton scenario).

BTW - moving major roadways in West Villiage would be "higher construction costs".

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by suburbia

The city and community has say in the design.

Why would the city want the arena to move away from downtown? All over North America the trend is to move them closer. Why would the community want an arena/entertainment district next door with all the drunken loutish behaviour that will follow? Calgary already tries to contain it on the stampede grounds.

Originally Posted by suburbia

Regarding higher construction costs for the arena itself, I think you're confused. Any other development is a golden egg for the Flames owners if done well (think of the Edmonton scenario).

I don't think I'm confused. If the goal is redevelopment then you need a well designed and integrated piece of architecture. This is much more expensive than the concrete shell and expansive parking lots which, frankly, can facilitate the on ice product fine. So what incentive do the Flames have for spending their own money on top quality architecture? The answer is none. Tossing out redevelopment and fancy designs is nothing more than a hook to try to entice the city to pony up, something Nenshi wisely poo poo-ed.

Now, if the Flames decided that there is a business case for them go it alone to construct their own massive entertainment district in Firepark then great, fancy new arena! ...But don't make the mistake of thinking it would come close to emulating the Edmonton model. In Edmonton the arena is only a part of the redevelopment. There is the Alberta art gallery, the winspire center and so much more that's being integrated in an attempt to liven a dead downtown. They are creating multiple destinations for multiple types of people at all times of day. That's why public money makes more sense up in Edmonton, but not in Calgary. Calgary has a thriving downtown, a profitable NHL team and so many other higher priorities, (like transit!)

Originally Posted by suburbia

BTW - moving major roadways in West Villiage would be "higher construction costs".

Yes, west village would have much higher construction costs, but presumably the Flames would expect the city to condition the site East Village style.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The point is they anticipate they would need 12000 residents (I think that was the number) in order to recoup the money spend through a CRL. If they have a large amount of that land as a stadium / arena complex, that would probably be about half the room required and would eliminate the possibility of having that many residents.

Just build taller residential towers in order to get the required number of residents . . . right Tallbob.

[bt04ku]

Originally Posted by fusili

Yeah, good plan. Leave a large, dedicated market and move to Tulsa or some crap.

At the time the lease deal was made Denver, Phoenix and Minneapolis/St. Paul were all actively courting NHL teams. It wasn't a time to start gouging. That's a big reason why Winnipeg left the first time (the worst arena deal imaginable).


EDIT: Not to say things should be the same now, just commenting on why it was the way it was.

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

The Senators are looking to potentially relocate to downtown Ottawa.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/12/1...dering-the-opportunity-to-move-downtown/

Here's a great thread for arena discussions that aren't about the Flames:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=152997&page=484

[The Fisher Account]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

There was talk about non-downtown locations for the Flames new arena, including speculation that if the City didn't play ball with the Flames organization that they might move to a different jurisdiction, and I was showing that the few that have attempted it are not thrilled with the results.

Sorry for my ham-fisted attempt to contribute to the Flames thread regarding the location of the arena.=

That's a lot of inferring to do by posting a link to a news article

[WaitWhat?]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

There was talk about non-downtown locations for the Flames new arena, including speculation that if the City didn't play ball with the Flames organization that they might move to a different jurisdiction, and I was showing that the few that have attempted it are not thrilled with the results.

Sorry for my ham-fisted attempt to contribute to the Flames thread regarding the location of the arena.=

This is very relevant to the discussion. Thanks 5seconds.

[artvandelay]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

That's a lot of inferring to do by posting a link to a news article

This is a discussion forum. Happenings with respect to arenas in other Canadian cities are obviously relevant to the discussion.

[suburbia]

I don't think there was anything wrong with the Ottawa post. Completely relevant to look at best practices or happenings in general elsewhere at a time when arena development is being considered in Calgary.

The Ottawa situation is interesting though. It is not like they are in a location like Firepark. They're way out there at the outskirts of Cochrane. Single road, no train, major challenges.

I enjoyed my visit to the then Corel Centre. The building still has lots of life IMHO.

With Calgary's downturn, will be curious to see how the Flames play it. Go full speed ahead and take advantage of cheaper construction costs, or slow down given development dollars risk.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by suburbia

With Calgary's downturn, will be curious to see how the Flames play it. Go full speed ahead and take advantage of cheaper construction costs, or slow down given development dollars risk.

If they design it correctly, the development will come. Might as well take advantage of the cost savings and build the arena when its cheapest. While the development will make the project profitable, it is not required to make the arena operational.

[Calgarian]

Why are people mentioning the cooling of the economy right now as if it is a factor in a building that is YEARS away?

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by Riise

If they design it correctly, the development will come. Might as well take advantage of the cost savings and build the arena when its cheapest. While the development will make the project profitable, it is not required to make the arena operational.

Of course as the article shows, that's not necessarily the case. Being that the Ottawa arena was designed to be the "centerpiece of a new commercial development that never materialized".

Having said that, if the Flames have the money and decide to take a run at moving the arena and locate a spot they think they can redevelop, then I agree with your point that now, with cheaper labour, would be a good time to get the ball rolling.