[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[someone123]

Originally Posted by sdm

Never experience is incorrect, i will correctly say for extended periods dependant upon the time of year.

The other study i would like to see is a wind study, as again with the placement and the southeasterly/northeast wind it would be interesting how the struture would interact along the street.

Wind does seem like it might be an issue given the fact that the facade is mostly unbroken on the Argyle Street side.

Even if the buildings were much shorter (e.g. 8 storeys) they would block just about as much sun on Argyle, and during the nicest times of the year when the patios are used there tends to be a lot of light either way (not much shadowing in June, lots in December). Those patios are also busy at night when there is no sunlight either way. The sunlight issue is a little exaggerated and there's no way to preserve full light for the whole downtown area. This is part of why there are public spaces like the Citadel and Public Gardens.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by someone123

Wind does seem like it might be an issue given the fact that the facade is mostly unbroken on the Argyle Street side.

Even if the buildings were much shorter (e.g. 8 storeys) they would block just about as much sun on Argyle, and during the nicest times of the year when the patios are used there tends to be a lot of light either way (not much shadowing in June, lots in December). Those patios are also busy at night when there is no sunlight either way. The sunlight issue is a little exaggerated and there's no way to preserve full light for the whole downtown area. This is part of why there are public spaces like the Citadel and Public Gardens.

Good point, the point really is i think all would like to see if a study. Its impossible to build without blocking the sun in some shape or form. However because the structure spans the block it will create a larger shadow i believe.

The wind i think could be a bigger issue, but again without a study who knows.

[fenwick16]

Here is a shadow study for the Roy building proposal which is about the same height. The Roy tower is the one in red - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/Case0...adowStudy.html It is easiest to see in full screen mode.

There will be a shadow cast during times of the day but some people prefer being in the shade on hot summer days. It seems as though most businesses on Argyle Street are in favour of this project since it will result in more customers emanating from the convention centre.

[halifaxboyns]

I guess I would agree with you someone123 to an extent. I think to a degree height is an issue (somewhat); but design can correct the issue. I think the city staff are getting much more experience dealing with the design issues and dealing with them well. Not always; there have been a few applications where some design considerations could've been thought out more. But still, they are doing a pretty good job...

I would have to agree about the hotel and I think with more consultation we'll see that change.

As a wise former boss pointed out to me; every development has effects. You can never fully negate everything and so i'd agree with the comment that parts of Agricola would be in shadow for a long period - but that can change with the design. Good design can reduce effects, but not totally resolve them. Trillium is a great example of where design worked well, but still doesn't fully negate shadow effects on the gardens and adjacent park. I think we all need to accept that some effects will occur, it's just a matter of how well we work to negate them.

I'm sure further reworking of the design will reduce the sun shadow and like Trillium, good design can negate the wind impacts too.

[Empire]

Darrell throws millions of dollars at his home riding........did anyone vote NDP?


"I attended South Queens Junior High School when I was a young man, so it holds a special place in my heart," said Premier Dexter in a Department of Education news release. "I know that the new school will be an excellent addition to the community. It will make life better by enhancing the learning environment for students.

Darrells new school
http://www.ssrsb.ca/latest-news/new-...th-queens.html

[sdm]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I guess I would agree with you someone123 to an extent. I think to a degree height is an issue (somewhat); but design can correct the issue. I think the city staff are getting much more experience dealing with the design issues and dealing with them well. Not always; there have been a few applications where some design considerations could've been thought out more. But still, they are doing a pretty good job...

I would have to agree about the hotel and I think with more consultation we'll see that change.

As a wise former boss pointed out to me; every development has effects. You can never fully negate everything and so i'd agree with the comment that parts of Agricola would be in shadow for a long period - but that can change with the design. Good design can reduce effects, but not totally resolve them. Trillium is a great example of where design worked well, but still doesn't fully negate shadow effects on the gardens and adjacent park. I think we all need to accept that some effects will occur, it's just a matter of how well we work to negate them.

I'm sure further reworking of the design will reduce the sun shadow and like Trillium, good design can negate the wind impacts too.

The question remains, how much public input will there truly be? Again i have no problem with the height, its the massing all along argyle street. It would be interesting to see a street view looking south on argyle street to see how it would loook.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by sdm

The question remains, how much public input will there truly be? Again i have no problem with the height, its the massing all along argyle street. It would be interesting to see a street view looking south on argyle street to see how it would loook.

I guess it will depend on how serious they are about actually thinking about public input. I would think that because a development agreement will probably be required - there would be some staff input to it; so going back to what I said earlier; I suspect there would be design changes.

Frankly; I would hope that the team from HbD would get involved and give some suggestions. But I guess it will also depend on how much 'delay' everyone is willing to stomache on this. I have a sneaking fear that if we move forward; it will either be 'get the da done fast' or it will be token public consultation and 'get the da done fast'. If I were to suggest a good solution; I'd say hold off on the public input until the DA process starts and then do it. But be prepared for people to keep trying to hijack the process and get back into the financial debate.

[halifaxboyns]

I thought I would post this because this made me laugh. As I mentioned before, I joined the STV facebook group - mainly to be a shi* disturber. One of my friend's Mike is doing it too; it's fun.

Anyway, this got posted directed at me today after someone posted a note basically accusing the group of supporting sprawl. When the moderator said they weren't doing that; I responded by basically saying well lets see; HT has appealed pretty much every development in 20 years...what does that say?

So here is the posting that was directed at me:
"Ken, James and all other like minded out there. If you had the money to spend that most developers have you, too, would not build in DT. Neither, Save the View nor Heritage Trust are holding them back. GET IT STRAIGHT! The market is holding them back. As Turner Drake and other reports have said the market is not there.... Why? Because Halifax Councils have built roads to Bayers Lake, Dartmouth Crossing and other such places where the parking is free, etc. In DT the parking is not free and Council constantly raises the parking meter costs scaring away more people. DT taxes are a lot higher than in the business parks too. So there!"
As someone who thought; I might be able to sway one point of view - that post shows to me; they are hopeless and have no understanding.

Just for the record, my response:
So there? Real mature. It's a response like that will ensure the downtown will never densify. Yes; planners made huge mistakes in the 70's and 80's letting downtowns die but that's hardly isolated to Halifax. Every city suffered that. Why do you think places like Toronto and Vancouver stores do well in downtown? A combination of more people in downtown which then attracts more offices. To build a convention centre out in the burbs is a huge mistake. Besides, zoning can change. More cities are turning the sprawl around by setting maximum parking standards so you can't have a sea of parking to encourage more development back into the core. A number of cities have done that in the US.

One other thing - since you say that STV and the HT aren't holding back downtown development - then you would have no problem with a change to twisted sisters going from an office tower (hotel remaining unchange) to a residential tower instead? Same with the Discovery Centre? What about the Roy Building? The turner drake study talked about offices; it didn't talk about condos which is very strong in HRM.

[fenwick16]

These people will drive you crazy. Do they really want the convention centre in the suburbs?

PS: I see the allnovascotia.com posted an irate letter by a pro convention centre supporter with the same last name as me (it was me, I wrote it after reading 3 negative articles/commentaries in a row).

[beyeas]

Yeah I figured it was you, since I recognized some of the text from your post on here. :-) LOL

[DigitalNinja]

You should post your letter on here for the rest of us to read

[fenwick16]

Just one of my usual rants, similar to post # 1989. ok, so allnovascotia.com is back in my good books.

[Northend Guy]

Perhaps there should be an antithetical facebook group called 'Save the View...And the Future' or something like that. Something that actually presents a balanced approach to downtown development. I'm all for maintaining sight lines from the Citadel, but I think they need to be chosen a little bit more discriminately. Making arbitrary claims as to the significance of some of the current sightline restrictions seems to be slightly excessive. It is true that the Citadel has historical significance, and consideration needs to be given to that. However, history does have its place. The problem is if you try too hard to preserve history, the present and the future suffer. When that happens, what will be Halifax's legacy? A city devoid of life but with a cool beginning and we have the artifacts (and view) to prove it? Or a vibrant city that pays due homage to its history, and still has a fabulous view? I know which one I would prefer.

[Wishblade]

This small article shows what Ben McRae thinks of the hotel to be part of the convention centre complex...:

Proposed hotel could lead to glut

JENNIFER TAPLIN
METRO HALIFAX

A new downtown hotel — as part of the convention centre proposal — is worrisome to other hotel operators.

Ben McCrea’s Armour Group is working on an office-building and hotel development called Queen’s Landing in downtown Halifax. But if Rank Inc.’s proposal goes forward, it would set Queen’s Landing back several years, McCrea states.

“That will put more pressure on the hotel business downtown ... there’s going to be a price war and an occupancy war,” he said.

“Right now there really isn’t a market but we hope in a year or two it will rebound, but with this it will be years and years.”

Jeff Ransome, general manager of the Halifax Marriott Harbourfront Hotel and also the president of the Hotel Association of Nova Scotia, applauds the convention centre but is a little worried about a big, new hotel in the area.

“As an operator I look at the new hotel with mixed emotions: It’s great because it’s a necessary feature so we can get our convention centre up and running, and then I think there’s a period of time where the hotel industry is at risk because of the fact there will be more rooms on the market,” he said.

There are about 12 hotels in downtown Halifax, half of which have convention space.

[fenwick16]

Jeff Ransome, general manager of the Halifax Marriott Harbourfront Hotel and also the president of the Hotel Association of Nova Scotia, applauds the convention centre but is a little worried about a big, new hotel in the area.

“As an operator I look at the new hotel with mixed emotions: It’s great because it’s a necessary feature so we can get our convention centre up and running, and then I think there’s a period of time where the hotel industry is at risk because of the fact there will be more rooms on the market,” he said.

This sounds like a sensible opinion by Jeff Ransome. On the other hand, Ben McCrea just sounds like a pessimist. Essentially he is saying - don't build the convention centre and hotel because it will mean competition for him.

The convention centre hotel is 4 years away. By that time an increase in hotel capacity will likely be required.

[someone123]

Halifax hotels actually tend to be expensive when compared to other much larger cities. I wonder how much of that is due to a lack of competition.

In NS in general there's a very bad tendency to accept complaints against competition and preserve uncompetitive industries that provide relatively poor, expensive service. If you coddle one industry it will make more money and perhaps have more jobs but others that rely on it suffer and the economy as a whole suffers on the balance.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This sounds like a sensible opinion by Jeff Ransome. On the other hand, Ben McCrea just sounds like a pessimist. Essentially he is saying - don't build the convention centre and hotel because it will mean competition for him.

Yeah he has been pouting a lot lately. He did the same thing in terms of the office building when he whined that if the office component of Nova Centre would mean he might not be able to build his office developments. I have lost some respect for him in the last while, given that he seems to think that the only developments that are important are his.

[Jonovision]

I do not have access to allnovascotia. I was told that Frank Palermo wrote an article in it the other day looking at the Convention Centre. Could someone post it please?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I do not have access to allnovascotia. I was told that Frank Palermo wrote an article in it the other day looking at the Convention Centre. Could someone post it please?

allnovascoria.com doesn't allow posting of its stories. However, I can quickly summarize it - under the guise of being neutral, he states that the towers are too tall, it is at the wrong location, it will result in poor street activity, the towers are mediocre 70's style worthy of tier II convention centres (however it will be competing with Las Vegas, he states), and it will have large, empty cavernous spaces (I think that I missed several of his neutral points ). However, all these things can be solved with public consultations (apparently it just needs to be completely re-design, moved to a better location and converted into a performing arts centre)

PS: I re-read the story, he is not stating that it should be moved but that the current design is wrong for that location. He wants it to be useful as a performing arts centre. I remember Joe Ramia stating before HRM council that the Multifunction room can be used for concerts of 3000 - 4000 people (can some body confirm that?)

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

PS: I re-read the story, he is not stating that it should be moved but that the current design is wrong for that location. He wants it to be useful as a performing arts centre. I remember Joe Ramia stating before HRM council that the Multifunction room can be used for concerts of 3000 - 4000 people (can some body confirm that?)

In my experience the main convention halls (which would be the only space in Nova Centre big enough to hold 4000 people I would think) do not make good performance halls.

I can certainly see that it would be a space to temporarily seat 4000 people for a large scale speaking engagement using a speaking dais, but it would not be well suited either acoustically or in terms of viewing experience for performances. Usually these centres have one hall with inclined seating that holds maybe 1000 people (in addition to the smaller spaces), but the main hall is really just designed for vendor displays etc. Any room that is designed to have a transport truck roll into it and set up large scale commercial vendor displays is unlikely to be well suited to watching the symphony!!!