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  #1  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2013, 8:31 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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193 King East is not a new problem. It has been in the City's hand since 2006. The City has left it empty since taking it in 2006. Farr has been the Ward representative for a good chunk of that time, and has let it sit idle with no apparent interest until IV BIA recently voiced their concern with it. His response to their suggestion to tear it down is to say that he is agreeable with the City tearing it down if they say it is beyond repair.

Contrast this to how 18-28 King St. East has been handled:

Demolition was approved in December 2012. Whether or not we agreed with it at the time (and as I have said, I would have preferred the buildings to stay in some form), the City gave the okay.

After much ballyhoo, Farr launched a crusade to save the buildings. A couple months ago, city staff recommended $1.1 funding to go towards saving the facade.

The money was being offered with many stipulations:

Quote:
In order to be eligible for the full amount of $150,000 per municipal address under the Hamilton Heritage Property Improvement Grant Program for the restoration/ conservation/stability work, the applicant would have to spend a minimum of $560,000 per municipal address on eligible items under the Program ($2,800,000 in total for the five municipal addresses). To be eligible for the additional $20,000 per municipal address for heritage assessments/reports/studies, the applicant would have to spend a minimum of $20,000 per municipal address ($100,000 in total for the five municipal addresses) on eligible costs related to those heritage assessments/reports/studies.

In order to be eligible for the full amount of $50,000 per municipal address under the GORE Building Improvement Grant Program the applicant would have to spend $100,000 per municipal address or, $500,000 in total for the five municipal addresses.

Estimates submitted with each application would have to be broken down for each municipal address. Estimates for the entire project will not be accepted.

The following is undertaken when processing applications submitted under the financial incentive programs:

 Zoning Verification (uses not in compliance with Zoning By-law are not eligible for funding)
 Building Code Violations (violations to be addressed prior to final advancement of monies)
 Fire Code Violations (violations to be addressed prior to final advancement of monies)
Property Standard Violations (violations to be addressed prior to final advancement
of monies)
 Taxes on property proposed to be developed/improved as well as taxes on other properties in Hamilton owned by the applicant checked to determine if there are any outstanding taxes on the properties (to be paid prior to advancement of monies if approved for funding)
 Litigation (if applicant is in litigation with the City of Hamilton and the commercial relationship has been impeded, staff will not recommend approval of a loan/grant)
 Heritage designation under the Ontario Heritage Act to be determined (work with Heritage Planners in Development Planning Heritage and Design if property is designated or listed on the Inventory of Buildings of Architectural and/or Historic Interest to ensure any heritage requirements are met)

If there is no designation under the Ontario Heritage Act, there will be no grants under the Hamilton Heritage Property Improvement Grant Program.

The owner would also be eligible to apply for the BIA Commercial Property
Improvement Grant Program (a matching grant to a maximum amount determined by the width of the buildings). This Program would cover elements that would not be eligible for funding under the Hamilton Heritage Property Improvement Grant Program or not funded under the GORE Building Improvement Grant Program.

Dependent upon the proposed final redevelopment plan for the project, the owner could also apply for: the Hamilton Tax Increment Grant Program (a grant based on the increase in the municipal portion of taxes attributable to the redevelopment of the property); the Multi-Residential Property Investment Program (a zero interest loan based on 25% of the construction cost for residential development or redevelopment to a maximum loan of $5 M); and, the Office Tenancy Assistance Program (a low-interest loan to a maximum of $450,000 for tenant improvements).
According to Blanchard, that would have covered about half of the cost to save the facades. In response to this issue, the City ended all discussions with Blanchard and Farr introduced his motion to stop the demolition and designated the buildings as heritage, motions carried by council.

Apparently around the same time he was meeting with city staff about the possibility of tearing down 193 King St. E. Yes, he says he would rather see it redeveloped, but qualifies that statement by saying he hears it is beyond repair. Well, Blanchard's claim that 18-28 King East is beyond repair is ignored by Farr. He wants the City to confirm that 193 King is not reparable, why wasn't the same done for 18-28 King?

Why is there no discussion about preserving the streetwall at 193 King East? Why does Farr think it is okay to demolish as long as some sort of public space is incorporated after the fact? The streetwall will be broken and the 1850's building will be gone. This is the opposite of urban intensification.

For anyone that has been looking at the big picture, 193 King E is not a new problem. It is not (at least it should not) be early days for the city to be exploring what to do here. The city has owned the property since 2006 and still it sits empty. 193 King East has been left derelict under Farr's watch. That is a shameful way for the city to be handling a downtown property that it owns. It is past time he is held to task over it. so you'll have to excuse me for not patting him on the back over the hollow victory at 18-28 King East.

If this city is to promote development of the downtown, then it needs to handle the property it owns in the same way that they expect private property owners to handle their property. That is a little something called leadership by example.
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  #2  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2013, 10:49 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
He wants the City to confirm that 193 King is not reparable, why wasn't the same done for 18-28 King?
The same was done for 18-28 King. The city commissioned a study, the study said they are not falling down and are candidates for adaptive reuse, and that keeping them would not create problems for new construction on the rest of the block. Watch the city hall meeting it's all there. So Farr should request a proper engineering report for sandbar, and come up with a plan based on the results. Whether he's doing a good job or not will depend on his actions given all of the information. Perhaps he's learned a lesson from blanchard about listening to laymen's reports about "falling down buildings".

There's no point continuing this discussion as you keep moving the targets.
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Old Posted Dec 16, 2013, 11:49 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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As a resident of Ward 2 who is an active voter I will be watching both these properties closely. As far as I am concerned, Farr is working on a yellow card. If either of these properties remain vacant or are demolished this time next November, Farr should not be returned to office.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 5:39 AM
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If these buildings are vacant it wouldn't be Jason Farr's fault. Jason can convince Council to designate and protect the buildings (no small feat), but there is no legal tool for the City to force a building's owner / landlord to lease space in a building they had previously evicted. These buildings all had tenants before the owner evicted them. The only choice we have now is between buildings or no buildings. If they are demolished, that also is not Jason Farr's fault. The owner was intent to demolish immediately after the tenants were evicted. It seems you are determined to find fault in Jason Farr for some outcome related to these buildings, but how is any outcome likely to be worse as a result of his actions? It's not as if there is a real development plan with any kind of timeline that has been jeopardized by Council's move to designate.

If these buildings are not standing come next election, you blame Jason Farr.

If these buildings are standing and unoccupied come next election, you blame Jason Farr.

If these buildings are standing and occupied come next election, you do not blame Jason Farr.

So the only outcome for which you would not fault Jason Farr is that which he has no influence over, and that for which the building owner has complete control over.


'Set up to fail' any?
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 12:13 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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As far as 18-28 King East goes, the current situation that it has been placed is the result of council motions brought forward by Farr. Whatever outcome lies ahead for this site will be determined by these motions. He should and must be accountable for whatever state we find them in this time next year.

The knee-jerk reaction from some is to slap him on the back and congratulate him for 'saving' these buildings. They have not been saved. They are wooden framed structures that now stand open and exposed to the elements of a Canadian winter. Blanchard is pursuing legal advice on how to proceed based on Farr's motions, so any action on these buildings will now likely be frozen in legal wrangling. Farr has set in place conditions that put the buildings in jeopardy and must be held accountable for the results.

I will concede that there is an outside chance that there may be some last-minute behind-the-scenes backroom deal brewing that may 'save' these buildings at 18-28 King East, but I find that highly unlikely. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong and my opinion on Farr's handling of this could change if the buildings are genuinely saved on something more than paper.

In the case of 193 King East, this is a city-owned building that has been kept empty since the city acquired it in 2006. The city is the landlord. Its fate is entirely in the hands of the city. If it is 'unsalvageable' as Councillor Farr has alluded, then it became unsalvageable under his watch. As the Councillor for Ward Two, Farr must be held accountable for the condition of a City-owned property in his ward.

Far too often Councillors in Hamilton are given a free ride on the decisions they make. If we want the future of this city to be improved, we have to start holding them accountable for their actions. I may be completely wrong about the fate of 18-28 King East and 193 King East, but that fate is being determined by Farr's actions (or relative inaction, in the case of 193 King East). As a result I have every right to hinge my decision on whether to vote for him based on the fate that befalls them.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 1:17 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
Far too often Councillors in Hamilton are given a free ride on the decisions they make.
Look around you! No one on this forum is giving any councillors a free ride. The only one getting a free ride around here is blanchard - from you.

God forbid any councillor should do something progressive, according to you nobody's allowed to thank them because the city has not been progressive in the past - so they are either bad at being councillors or hypocrites.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 3:38 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Originally Posted by coalminecanary View Post
Look around you! No one on this forum is giving any councillors a free ride. The only one getting a free ride around here is blanchard - from you.
Stop setting up straw men. Review all my posts here. I am not giving Blanchard a free ride. I will not however join in on the attempt to vilify him and detract blame for this mess away from the city.

Yes, he has torn down 20 Jackson West, a nondescript 1950's 8-storey office building without any redevlopment plan in place, which is wrong. But the City granted him the demolition permit. Yes, he did have demo permits for 18-28 King East. The City granted him the permits last year. If Blanchard was truly the civic villain that you wish to portray, the buildings would have come down then. Instead, he delayed their demolition when the city requested he do so while they rethought their decision and offered to assist financially with saving the facades. Yes, he has been overly vague about his plans for redeveloping his properties bounded by King, Hughson, Main and John. Why did the City grant him a demolition permit without solid plans in place?

Blanchard had demonstrated a willingness to incorporate the heritage elements of his properties in several past projects including Piggot/Sun Life, Landed Bank Building, 1 Hunter, and Main and Hughson. He also was demonstrating a willingness to incorporate heritage elements of the facades of 18-28 King East into whatever future development is done at that property, but is hamstrung by the high cost of doing so. They were negotiating an arrangement to do this when the city, under Farr's guidance, decided to shut down discussion, walk away, and reverse their earlier decision to allow demolition and designated these buildings.

Quote:
God forbid any councillor should do something progressive
There is nothing progressive in this dog's breakfast. If we had a progressive and proactive council, Blanchard would not have had the permits to demolish in the first place. If the city was progressive and proactive they would be working with developers to incorporate heritage buildings into redevelopments in a collaborative rather than a confrontational manner.

Quote:
according to you nobody's allowed to thank them because the city has not been progressive in the past - so they are either bad at being councillors or hypocrites.
This is a completely false statement.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 2:01 PM
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off topic a bit, but on Saturday Jennifer Keesmaat wrote an article in the SPec about Hamilton and its city-building policies. I can't find it online (I think becuase I am not registered to the Spec), so does anyone have a link to it or a scan/picture of the article?
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 3:25 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Is it this one:

http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story...in-principles/

Quote:
A great city — in principles
Hamilton has made its share of planning mistakes — but they are all fixable

By Jennifer Keesmaat

Jennifer Keesmaat grew up in Hamilton and, just over a year ago, became chief planner for the City of Toronto. Earlier this month, she spoke to the first Ambitious City event, hosted by the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce. Below are her notes for that talk.

I have been thinking and reading a lot about Hamilton, and wondering about the ways it shaped who I am. Interestingly, as I have thought about my experiences of the city, a big part of the story has been how I have moved through the city, from place to place.

I have memories as a child of walking along the streets of Dundas and hanging out in the library as my mother took classes at the Dundas Valley School of Art. I have memories of training and racing on the trails in Spring Valley. I have memories of canoeing in Cootes Paradise, and hiking the Bruce. I have memories of my walk to school, straight down West 5th Street. I have memories of zipping all over this city on the HSR, and most vividly, of waiting for the bus all the time. I have memories of travelling on my $10 garage-sale-special, grey 10-speed bike, whether to my Hamilton Spectator paper route, or to my first ever part-time job at Lime Ridge Mall (I was 11 the week it opened, and it was in the middle of farmers' fields).

But my favourite memory is distinctly Hamiltonian and it involves that 10-speed bike. And it's this: carrying my bike, on my shoulder, back up the Mountain to get home. I remember the agony, that moment of thinking there's no way I can do this, followed by the clear knowledge that … I had no choice.

Hamilton, your future is bright, because it is in your hands. You choose the city that you want to become; you choose whether this is a city for all, or only for some; you choose whether you have a sustainable future.

I know what it is like to stand at the bottom of a mountain (our mountain, anyway), as dusk is falling, with the need to get up to the top. But somehow, through sheer will — I got home.

So maybe the upshot here is that this city, with both its natural beauty, and its Mountain to be climbed, inspired me, but also made me tenacious. Persistent. Determined. Not only was this good training for life, but it was exceptional training for city building — on many, many of levels.

Because creating a great city is far from easy.

So Hamilton, I hear you have some ambitions. Good. But what does it mean to be an ambitious city? What are the ambitions that we share? It is imperative to start here, because it is impossible for a city to move forward in the absence of a shared vision.

The crux of our shared interest can be summed up quite simply: shared prosperity — for all. If we can agree this is the vision that we hold in common, that this is worthy of our most co-ordinated, sophisticated efforts, worthy of our highest intelligence, the key question then becomes: How do we get there?

I would like to suggest that there are some timeless principles of city building that are critical to generating prosperous cities in the 21{+s}t Century.

Principle One: In Great Cities, places and streets are designed for people.

Think about some of the Great Cities of the world — Paris, Rome, Barcelona, even New York — these cities are transforming their streets to be places for people, instead of cars.

Although this is a timeless principle, many of our streets have been designed — through bad planning, really — to be places for moving cars. In doing this, we have taken away the places that are central to community life — streets where people linger, and interact; streets that are the heart of local commerce; streets that are walkable, enjoyable destinations.

Principle Two: Great Cities have neighbourhoods and main streets.

When neighbourhoods have main streets, it is possible to undertake much of your life within walking distance or a short transit ride of where you live. A local main street might provide the option of walking to the doctor, to the hairdresser, or to buy a gift for the birthday party next door. It is a fundamentally different way of life, living in a neighbourhood with a main street, from neighbourhoods that are comprised only of housing.

Principle Three: In Great Cities, people have many options for getting around from place to place.

To provide options for movement, it is essential to embrace complexity, and to design streets and buildings intentionally. By designing buildings to be oriented to pedestrians, and by designing streets to accommodate multimodal use (private vehicles, transit, and bikes), we can provide people with options for getting around, and over time, we will see a diversity of users.

But none of this works — the neighbourhood main streets, or the provision of choice — if you are missing the next principle:

Principle Four: Great Cities bring a critical mix of uses, in proximity.

This principle is about capitalizing on synergies and density, and ensuring that the intensity and complexity of use contributes to the vibrancy of a place.

Building denser, mixed use communities also makes better use of expensive infrastructure — if you think about it, in our single-use suburban communities, most of the infrastructure which we have built is unused all day long.

It is important to note that bringing uses in close does not necessarily mean towers. Some of the densest cities in the world are mid-rise.

Principle Five: In Great Cities, design matters.

Great cities have great public realms, and the quality of our public spaces says something about the places we value. It is a way of making contributions to civic life, by adding inspiration, and it is a way of signalling who belongs in public space.

Principle Six: In Great Cities, heritage preservation and restoration is recognized as adding long-term value.

Heritage buildings are assets that add value in many ways. Heritage preservation contributes to a city's distinct identity, creates character, and can be a key driver of economic development.

Great Cities maintain a connection to their past, adapting heritage buildings for new and innovative uses — as Jane Jacobs wrote, new ideas need old buildings.

Principle Seven: Great Cities value clean land, air and water.

Our cities, increasingly, are our habitat. We know — and this may seem counterintuitive — that the denser our habitat, and the extent to which we have transportation options, the lower our ecological footprint.

Without our habitat that sustains us, we do not have life. It is quite simple. Great Cities remember this, and treat land, air and water as the precious resources that they are.

Principle Eight: Great Cities plan for affordable housing.

This is a catch-22 for cities — you may be affordable now — but that cannot be your greatest asset. As you grow and develop, your affordability will decrease. The market, as you develop a stronger sense of place, will need to be shaped and managed through strong public policy to build affordable housing.

Great Cities must plan for affordable housing options, and affordable housing should be integrated into the most urban, desirable places to live — the same neighbourhoods that provide options for movement and walkable amenity.

With these principles in mind, there are also some hard truths for Hamilton. The first is this. You have made some classic mistakes, and they have hurt you dearly:
read the rest: http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story...in-principles/
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 3:42 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Your posts speak for themselves.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 4:45 PM
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Yes, thank you Coalmine.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2013, 6:41 PM
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Last edited by Pigeon; Aug 18, 2022 at 11:13 PM.
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2013, 1:06 AM
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markbarbera -

Re: "Blanchard had demonstrated a willingness to incorporate the heritage elements of his properties in several past projects including Piggot/Sun Life..."

David Blanchard had nothing to do with either the original restoration of the Pigott/Sun Life buildings nor the ensuing condo conversion in the mid-90s. Unfortunately, the local media has repeated this misinformation so many times that people now believe it to be true. But it's not.

Mr. Blanchard's firm owns a couple of floors of commercial space that he leases out and, for the last few years, it's provided management services for the residential condo corporation. That's it.

He may deserve credit for some downtown heritage projects, but the Pigott/Sun Life complex isn't one of them.
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2013, 2:42 AM
DC1983 DC1983 is offline
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Where are the Mods!??!?

Downtown Update

Since the "Downtown Update" section of a certain website has been missing for a while, I thought I would start one here!

We could dedicate this thread to new food / drink / retail shops in the core and inner-city.

I always like checking out new places as they open so I have something to suggest to friends and family when they visit me (and others) downtown.

So update away!!!


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I came back to check on this site after a long absence, and this is what I come back to?!?
THIS is exactly why I (and others) left this forum in the first place; ppl like 'Mark Barbera' derailing every thread with 'his' opinions -- which btw is 100% clear and obvious 'trolling'.

It's time markbarbera is BANNED! Once banned, I may return with what everyone on this forum comes here for; UPDATES (and photo-updates).

Mr 'Barbera' contributes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to this forum but 'his' opinions (no updates, no 'rumours', no photos, etc), which again are clearly not his opinions at all but rather nothing more than trolling measures.

So let's start with getting the Downtown Update thread back to what it was meant for (read red text above)!!

Side Note: Until markbarbera is banned, please DO NOT use my photo updates from UrbanToronto on this site. I do not give permission to use them.

Last edited by DC1983; Dec 18, 2013 at 2:52 AM. Reason: side note
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2013, 12:21 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC1983 View Post
Downtown Update

Since the "Downtown Update" section of a certain website has been missing for a while, I thought I would start one here!

We could dedicate this thread to new food / drink / retail shops in the core and inner-city.

I always like checking out new places as they open so I have something to suggest to friends and family when they visit me (and others) downtown.

So update away!!!


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I came back to check on this site after a long absence, and this is what I come back to?!?
THIS is exactly why I (and others) left this forum in the first place; ppl like 'Mark Barbera' derailing every thread with 'his' opinions -- which btw is 100% clear and obvious 'trolling'.

It's time markbarbera is BANNED! Once banned, I may return with what everyone on this forum comes here for; UPDATES (and photo-updates).

Mr 'Barbera' contributes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to this forum but 'his' opinions (no updates, no 'rumours', no photos, etc), which again are clearly not his opinions at all but rather nothing more than trolling measures.

So let's start with getting the Downtown Update thread back to what it was meant for (read red text above)!!

Side Note: Until markbarbera is banned, please DO NOT use my photo updates from UrbanToronto on this site. I do not give permission to use them.
DC1983, first and foremost, I want to sincerely apologize that this thread has moved away from your original intention for it. I have not been contacted by any forum moderator about this, and am responding on my own initiative. The content indeed has moved away from its original intent to become a general conversation about what is happening downtown in a picture much bigger than that of what is new downtown in the form of food, drink and shopping. Perhaps this happened mainly because specific threads for dining and shopping have been created in the "Culture, Dining, Sports and Recreation" sub section of this forum.

With regards to my overall contribution to the forum as a whole, I don't think you are painting it very fairly. I do not just place opinion here, I do bring forward discussions about items of interest that have not been recorded here recently, and I have posted photos and rumours as I have heard them in the past.

I do have a tendency to engage in lively debate when opinions are posted. That is what a thread discussion is supposed to be about. The fact that I may not agree with someone's opinion does not make me a troll. I do not disagree just for the sake of disagreement, I always bring forth information to support my opinion. I may voice disagreement, but I never attack anyone personally on this forum and always post based on the forum guidelines

I am sorry you feel so strongly about my posting here. I will make an effort to dial down my participation here, and will resist the temptation to post counter-arguments to other forum participants who do challenge my posts here simply for the sake of argument. I will resist the temptation to derail threads, and will redirect those who wish to discuss sidebar issues to threads more appropriate for that discussion. I am hoping that commitment from me, which is being posted of my volition and not at the prompting of any moderator, will be enough to make you reconsider your personal withdraw from participation in this forum.
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2013, 11:58 PM
BCTed BCTed is offline
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
With regards to my overall contribution to the forum as a whole, I don't think you are painting it very fairly. I do not just place opinion here, I do bring forward discussions about items of interest that have not been recorded here recently, and I have posted photos and rumours as I have heard them in the past.
I do not think anyone should be under any obligation to post anything more than opinion on a reasonably open Internet forum. Photos, rumours, inside scoops, et cetera add to the fun, but not everyone has access to them or interest in sharing them, and we should not act as if some kind of toll has to be paid in order to participate in discussions.

Differing viewpoints, if presented in a civil and grounded manner, should be encouraged.
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Old Posted Dec 19, 2013, 12:14 AM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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"arguing online", even when there's no chance of "winning" (whatever that would mean) is fulfilling because it forces me to do deeper research and work on articulating the results. If we all just agreed with each other we'd lose interest pretty quick.
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Old Posted Dec 19, 2013, 8:06 AM
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Guess I had better start contributing more than just opinions too.

I really don't see the trolling. And while we all have our own perspectives and they sometimes contrast strongly against those of others, I've yet to see any debate get out of hand. It's actually quite civil on this sub-forum.

I also didn't realize this thread was originally intended to be more limited in scope. To me "Downtown Update" implies updates about downtown.
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2013, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC1983 View Post
Downtown Update

Since the "Downtown Update" section of a certain website has been missing for a while, I thought I would start one here!

We could dedicate this thread to new food / drink / retail shops in the core and inner-city.

I always like checking out new places as they open so I have something to suggest to friends and family when they visit me (and others) downtown.

So update away!!!


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I came back to check on this site after a long absence, and this is what I come back to?!?
THIS is exactly why I (and others) left this forum in the first place; ppl like 'Mark Barbera' derailing every thread with 'his' opinions -- which btw is 100% clear and obvious 'trolling'.

It's time markbarbera is BANNED! Once banned, I may return with what everyone on this forum comes here for; UPDATES (and photo-updates).

Mr 'Barbera' contributes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to this forum but 'his' opinions (no updates, no 'rumours', no photos, etc), which again are clearly not his opinions at all but rather nothing more than trolling measures.

So let's start with getting the Downtown Update thread back to what it was meant for (read red text above)!!

Side Note: Until markbarbera is banned, please DO NOT use my photo updates from UrbanToronto on this site. I do not give permission to use them.
I agree that this thread has gotten off-topic. It probably has several times over its lengthy history. There are a lot of possible tangents here.

I don't agree with the assertion of trolling here. The discussion here should be taking place in the thread 'David Blanchard's Proposal' as it relates to that developer / development. I will start discussing it there. It's easy to get off on a tangent but that isn't trolling.

Sometimes once I get reading and want to post, I tend to assume I'm in the right thread for that discussion. A few people make that mistake and before long we are off topic.

I understand some people were turned off of this board because of the arguments. However, I think it would be a much more boring place if it were only updates and no opinions.
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Old Posted Dec 18, 2013, 11:57 AM
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matt602 matt602 is offline
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I can't say I agree with a lot of the things he or other people on this forum says, but I think the only person who ever deserved to get banned was the person who DID get banned years ago.

Sure this thread is starting to get tilted off course a little and the debate is getting a little heated but nobody is throwing around insults or acting too immature here, it's just a differing of opinions. I definitely don't think anyone needs to be banned here. I value the opinions of everyone who is participating on our SSP: Hamilton here.
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