Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[Genauso]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's the one advantage of light rail in this case: BRT runs at-grade or elevated, RRT runs elevated or underground, but LRT can do all three depending on the situation.

So LRT is half as good as the electric trolley buses we already have.

(aside: Can we give personal peeves and obsessions a rest? Not just you or this subject, but anything like trying to argue a perception into undisputed supremacy. There's a lot of cabin fever on the forum it seems, must be the poor photography weather)

The future is already being deployed with rapid charge battery buses in Seattle. Also out there are driverless systems, which will be able to master regular routes and be supported by remote pilots at a time far earlier than general purpose self-driving cars

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Genauso

(aside: Can we give personal peeves and obsessions a rest? Not just you or this subject, but anything like trying to argue a perception into undisputed supremacy. There's a lot of cabin fever on the forum it seems, must be the poor photography weather)

Nah, you're right. It is the topic in question though...

At any rate, we need to use the right technology in the right situation. It's just in this case, the "right tech" seems to be LRT/trams/streetcars/whatever you call it, because the last thing we need is more buses stuck in at-grade traffic or another fight about who gets SkyTrain first.

[officedweller]

As a side note, from today's Toronto Star:

Graphic video surfaces showing woman struck by TTC streetcar
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...streetcar.html

[cornholio]

Videos. I like Videos.

Here is tram/LRT network in Prague after a little accident on the tracks. Speed through the video.
• Video Link

And here is a fairly bad accident where the tram takes out the station.
• Video Link

Modern BRT networks are superior and still rapidly improving. Here is a older one in operation: • Video Link

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't see any realistic future where the Vancouver streetcar runs anywhere other than at-grade.

Surface subway! Think of it as a reverse-Portland scenario, where instead of running fast through uncongested outer areas and slow through congested downtown, you tunnel under downtown to bypass the congestion and then run streetcar-style outside of it.

Think of the Muni-Metro in San Francisco, the Green Line in Boston, the Surface Subway Lines of Philadelphia, the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel. You could even construct it so as to still be able to run trolleybuses through the tunnel as well

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cornholio

-snip-

Because nobody's ever been hit by a bus?

No, I get it - I'm usually on the other side of this debate. It just makes no sense to have a perfectly good rail ROW that bypasses traffic and red lights for half the route, then opt to completely ignore it and drive through said traffic and red lights regardless.

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Surface subway! Think of it as a reverse-Portland scenario, where instead of running fast through uncongested outer areas and slow through congested downtown, you tunnel under downtown to bypass the congestion and then run streetcar-style outside of it.

Think of the Muni-Metro in San Francisco, the Green Line in Boston, the Surface Subway Lines of Philadelphia, the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel. You could even construct it so as to still be able to run trolleybuses through the tunnel as well

Pretty much... though you left yourself open to the inevitable "then why not just make it a trolley bus line??"

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because nobody's ever been hit by a bus?

No, I get it - I'm usually on the other side of this debate. It just makes no sense to have a perfectly good rail ROW that bypasses traffic and red lights for half the route, then opt to completely ignore it and drive through said traffic and red lights regardless.



Pretty much... though you left yourself open to the inevitable "then why not just make it a trolley bus line??"

even the highest performance rail vehicles have longer stopping distances than rubber-tired vehicles, and there would at least seem to be a reason why US stats show notably higher fatalities per passenger mile and per unlinked trip for light rail than bus or heavy rail (all dramatically safer than cars, of course).

As for why-not-trolley-bus line, why not? Though our imaginary Arbutus line light rail has to go somewhere

[logicbomb]

Why is everyone obsessing over LRT/Streetcars all the sudden? I will admit at-grade transit could work in the fringes of the suburbs but Vancouver is already a chaotic hell of vehicles, trucks, buses, cyclists and pedestrians running reds or breaking other laws. LRT service would be crippled or halted throughout the year due to accidents, demonstrations/protests, parades etc...Just a bad idea all around.

The West End is already serviced well by C23, 5, 6, 19, and the many buses that go down Georgia.

I said this in the Arbutus Corridor thread but streetcars had their time before technology improved. Right now we have an unused stretch of new rails, concrete ties and fresh basalt (formerly the Downtown Historic Railway) being readied to be ripped out soon to make way for a bike-lane. The City isn't even willing to run a streetcar service because it makes zero sense. You could have made a case of the whole "cleaner/zero emissions" but electric self-driving buses are on their way.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Videos. I like Videos.

Here is tram/LRT network in Prague after a little accident on the tracks. Speed through the video.

Trams can effortlessly push/tow other trams. While buses cannot and need a mammoth tow truck to pick them up.
If there is an accident and the intersection is closed, its very unlikely a trolley can do a U-turn downtown and go back. Likewise, it is limited to where the trolley wires were placed except for a few hundred metres on backup power.
A tram can easily go backwards if needed, as well.

Originally Posted by cornholio

And here is a fairly bad accident where the tram takes out the station.

Considering:
1. The tram (probably a CKD Tatra T3, designed in the 60s and built 1960-1980) is ancient
2. The pantographs are set up incorrectly, probably indicating driver inexperience. If the correct setup was used (very last pantograph at the end of the train), it would have killed power immediately when the backside went down the wrong track.
3. Ancient tracks in most of Prague (I was there 2 years ago).

I can find an instance of a Brill trolley bus crashing due to lack of modern safety technology if you like, as well (like ABS, stability control).

Originally Posted by cornholio

Modern BRT networks are superior and still rapidly improving. Here is a older one in operation:

I'll agree there comparing a 1960s tram to a modern trolley. However, completely disagree with a modern tram.

Advantages I can immediately think of are:
- Loading platforms which are flush with the tram
- Trams can go full speed over switches, trolleys have to slow to a crawl to not bring down the whole intersections wiring
- Much faster top speed due to infrastructure (rails and overhead wiring) support it
- No need for negative and positive wiring above (only 1)
- Much less wear and tear/maintenance compared to a bus (tires and many more moving parts that are prone to failure like sterring components and suspension)
- Extremely unlikely to lose contact with power

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Genauso

So LRT is half as good as the electric trolley buses we already have.

(aside: Can we give personal peeves and obsessions a rest? Not just you or this subject, but anything like trying to argue a perception into undisputed supremacy. There's a lot of cabin fever on the forum it seems, must be the poor photography weather)

The future is already being deployed with rapid charge battery buses in Seattle. Also out there are driverless systems, which will be able to master regular routes and be supported by remote pilots at a time far earlier than general purpose self-driving cars

Any argument against Streetcars or LRT is based in reality of "we already did it, the city (of Vancouver) doesn't want it, put it to bed", the trolleybuses aren't as cool looking, but they are far more flexible than the streetcars they replaced.

That said. I'm not 100% against Streetcars or LRT if the business case makes sense. My argument is mostly against running these at grade without closing the grade crossings, thus putting riders and pedestrians unnecessarily at risk. On longer stretches of land that parallel a highway (eg say Richmond-Delta-Cloverdale-Langley-Abbotsford) where you can grade separate the crossings, it might make more sense than trying to build the Skytrain. But this doesn't change the nature of the problem, that running a lightrail/streetcar system in mixed traffic is incredibly dangerous, and doesn't have to be. There is this weird fixation by a few streetcar fans of wanting to go back to the 1930's, despite never growing up in the 30's. It's not the 1930's, and the population is not the same as the 1930's, and I don't care what Patrick Condon says, it is not sustainable to run door-to-door steetcars, that is high-maintenance gridlock.

Trolleybuses, or electric buses with rechargable/recyclable battery packs make far more sense than laying down track that needs to be maintained independently of the road surface, when the road surface gives a more comfortable ride to begin with. Sure tires have to be replaced eventually, but tires are cheaper to replace than having to constantly grind the rails and re-profile the wheels for the comfort passengers. But here's the conundrum. Everyone wants to complain about "unsightly wires", that's why we don't have trolleybuses down every major transit route. As much as I like the idea of rechargeable batteries, they are expensive to produce for transit vehicles, so without a charging network they can't be used... yet.

Driverless systems are not going to just magically appear in a few years, that is like a 50 year progression. People still drive 20 year old vehicles. Until there is a ban on vehicles without onboard autopilot/teaming a driverless future will not exist. We will get there slowly.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because nobody's ever been hit by a bus?

No, I get it - I'm usually on the other side of this debate. It just makes no sense to have a perfectly good rail ROW that bypasses traffic and red lights for half the route, then opt to completely ignore it and drive through said traffic and red lights regardless.

I thought we were talking about the west end... and if we have no other LRT system in place already, it makes more sense to simply rip up the old rails and build a BRT road on top. There aren't many places that still have rail in Vancouver anyways.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think traffic prevents BRT on the West End. That and space (no room for a dedicated bus lane).

And there's space for LRT? Where?
Both need an extra lane, otherwise, it's no better than a trolley bus.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Right now we have an unused stretch of new rails, concrete ties and fresh basalt (formerly the Downtown Historic Railway) being readied to be ripped out soon to make way for a bike-lane. The City isn't even willing to run a streetcar service because it makes zero sense. You could have made a case of the whole "cleaner/zero emissions" but electric self-driving buses are on their way.

Are you really going to assert that a short stretch of single track old freight spur at the bottom of a hill with two stops refutes the utility of an entire widely used passenger-moving technology?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Kisai

It's not the 1930's, and the population is not the same as the 1930's, and I don't care what Patrick Condon says, it is not sustainable to run door-to-door steetcars, that is high-maintenance gridlock.

Hey now, that's a straw man; nobody here wants Condon's "complete streets" or the resulting ghettos.

In this one particular instance, along this one particular stretch, there's enough of an existing ROW and low enough traffic for light rail to make sense. That's it.

Originally Posted by Kisai

Driverless systems are not going to just magically appear in a few years, that is like a 50 year progression. People still drive 20 year old vehicles. Until there is a ban on vehicles without onboard autopilot/teaming a driverless future will not exist. We will get there slowly.

Really not sure what the hype is about driverless buses. Sure, TransLink gets to make a few drivers redundant and shave off overhead, but all that Artificially Intelligent vehicles are going to do is cause Artificially Intelligent gridlock - no technology in this universe is going to shrink the cars, buses or passengers.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Are you really going to assert that a short stretch of single track old freight spur at the bottom of a hill with two stops refutes the utility of an entire widely used passenger-moving technology?

Old freight spur that saw near 10 million dollars in renovations and saw modest traffic during the Olympics only to be left "underfunded" afterwards. The City could have elected to rebuild the line and extend the line from Kitsilano to Main Street Station but elected to abandoned the project and rightfully so because the #50 and #84 is more reliable and faster.

Streetcars had their place in time. Buses are more reliable and cleaner nowadays.

[aberdeen5698]

If Surrey goes ahead with their LRT plans it will be very interesting to see how it's accepted there. People in the lower mainland have been spoiled by the very high frequencies that the Skytrain can achieve at low cost because of it's automation. You can't automate grade-level LRT, so it's going to be a substantially longer wait between trains than people are used to. I have a feeling that might not go over that well with the ridership.

[Rico]

I feel weird being in a position of defending LRT because I typically defend Skytrain.....but in the right place LRT can be much cheaper and almost as reliable as Skytrain. The Arbutus corridor is one of the few places in Metro Vancouver with the possibility of putting in a good LRT system. That said I don't think the ridership for the route is a sure thing right now although at some point in the future it will be.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If Surrey goes ahead with their LRT plans it will be very interesting to see how it's accepted there. People in the lower mainland have been spoiled by the very high frequencies that the Skytrain can achieve at low cost because of it's automation. You can't automate grade-level LRT, so it's going to be a substantially longer wait between trains than people are used to. I have a feeling that might not go over that well with the ridership.

You technically can automate an at-grade LRT, but then the business case falls apart faster than building elevated rail with protected guideways to begin with.

In order to automate:
1. You need sensors that can recognize dangerous activity, any mid or luxury car bought in the last 6 years has these kinds of sensors, it is mainstream, it would be trivial to add it to a LRT system and have the LRV's cameras and intersection cameras detect intrusion and, at the very least reduce the damage taken.
2. You still need to protect the ROW where people will intrude, this means 8' tall fences where jaywalking is an issue. You still need to close grade crossings with poor visibility.
3. You still need a way for the train to emergency stop if an emergency happens.

Really the only reason why at-grade LRV's are run "manually" when they use the exact same automated driverless signalling technology anyway is so that the the skill level is where the driver just pushes a button. The driver's entire purpose is to make the the passengers "feel safe". Remember the arguments against the RT in Toronto. The driver union wanted drivers, the public didn't trust automated trains and in doing so, undermined the efficiency of the RT.

Vancouver is the opposite, the public is actually very trusting of the automated tech, and it would not be unreasonable to push it onto a LRT system, because it would have better reaction time than a driver.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by fredinno

And there's space for LRT? Where?
Both need an extra lane, otherwise, it's no better than a trolley bus.

I never claimed there was space for anything in the west end. I think they are well served by buses. I'd love to see less on street parking in that area, particularly major roads like Davie and Denman.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I never claimed there was space for anything in the west end. I think they are well served by buses. I'd love to see less on street parking in that area, particularly major roads like Davie and Denman.

I'd say 'Well' served is a bit of a stretch. They're some of the slowest buses in the region.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

I'd say 'Well' served is a bit of a stretch. They're some of the slowest buses in the region.

Would be nice to see articulated trolleys on the 5/6.