Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It still boggles my mind that a whole group of someones looked at the plans for that station and thought to themselves "yeah that looks like a pleasant spot for a station. Who wouldn't want to cross a highway interchange, walk on minimum-width sidewalks under an overpass beside 70 km/h traffic, and wait on a platform in the middle of a highway with the barest weather protection?"

Agreed. Highway stations just don't make any sense to me . It's like they should at least widen the sidewalks to improve walkability.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I mean..

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7159...7i16384!8i8192

That said, I hate having to walk out of Lawrence West. The short walk to Lawrence Square which is basically immediately next to it still involves dodging cars and an intersection that only has pedestrian crossings on 3 sides.

And honestly, Lawrence West is miles better than Montreal Road. Putting rapid transit in a highway ROW is never ideal. But there are definitely degrees of shitty highway rapid transit.

• On the high end of "making the best of a bad situation", there's Montreal's Île des Soeurs: A station in a highway median, but you have platform doors, a car-free underpass to access it, and decent connections on either end of the underpass. You can walk to this station without fearing that you'll step off the curb to your death. In fact, you can walk to this station without really being aware that it's in a highway median.
  
  You'd let your 7-year-old walk ahead of you here.
  
  
  
  
• In the "it'll do in a pinch" category, you have Lawrence West and other stations in simple interchanges. It's not fantastic, but with a simple diamond interchange, you only have to cross one-way, 1-2 lane road segments. There's lots of traffic, but it's slowed by the two sets of lights to a less deadly speed. You can have some urban fabric on either side of the highway, and it's within quick walking distance between them, less than 100m.
  
  You'd let your 7-year-old walk with you, but you'd hold their hand.
  
  
  
• And finally, in the "holy hell" category, you have stations in cloverleaf or other complex interchanges. You have to dodge cars accelerating into free-flow ramps, cross 4-5 lanes of bi-directional traffic on either end, and deal with high-speed cars rushing only a handful of feet from you. It's a half kilometre and 3-4 signals to get from one end to the other of the interchange.
  
  You wouldn't take your kid to this station unless you absolutely had to or you were getting dropped off at the station entrance.
  

Ottawa has 17 (!) highway-adjacent stations. All but 6 are "holy hell" stations. All of them could be significantly improved with some interchange redesigns, and some could even become totally fine stations. But it would necessarily involve slowing traffic speeds and impeding flow. And this is what I find truly tragic about Ottawa - we talk a big game about transit and mobility, but whenever there are any decisions to be made, we'd sooner have transit users compromise their safety and dignity than inflict a 15-second signal delay on vehicles.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

And honestly, Lawrence West is miles better than Montreal Road. Putting rapid transit in a highway ROW is never ideal. But there are definitely degrees of shitty highway rapid transit.

• On the high end of "making the best of a bad situation", there's Montreal's Île des Soeurs: A station in a highway median, but you have platform doors, a car-free underpass to access it, and decent connections on either end of the underpass. You can walk to this station without fearing that you'll step off the curb to your death. In fact, you can walk to this station without really being aware that it's in a highway median.
  
  You'd let your 7-year-old walk ahead of you here.
  
  
  
  
• In the "it'll do in a pinch" category, you have Lawrence West and other stations in simple interchanges. It's not fantastic, but with a simple diamond interchange, you only have to cross one-way, 1-2 lane road segments. There's lots of traffic, but it's slowed by the two sets of lights to a less deadly speed. You can have some urban fabric on either side of the highway, and it's within quick walking distance between them, less than 100m.
  
  You'd let your 7-year-old walk with you, but you'd hold their hand.
  
  
  
• And finally, in the "holy hell" category, you have stations in cloverleaf or other complex interchanges. You have to dodge cars accelerating into free-flow ramps, cross 4-5 lanes of bi-directional traffic on either end, and deal with high-speed cars rushing only a handful of feet from you. It's a half kilometre and 3-4 signals to get from one end to the other of the interchange.
  
  You wouldn't take your kid to this station unless you absolutely had to or you were getting dropped off at the station entrance.
  

Ottawa has 17 (!) highway-adjacent stations. All but 6 are "holy hell" stations. All of them could be significantly improved with some interchange redesigns, and some could even become totally fine stations. But it would necessarily involve slowing traffic speeds and impeding flow. And this is what I find truly tragic about Ottawa - we talk a big game about transit and mobility, but whenever there are any decisions to be made, we'd sooner have transit users compromise their safety and dignity than inflict a 15-second signal delay on vehicles.

Which ones are Holy Hell? Montreal and Jeanne d'Arc fit the definition for sure. So does Pinecrest for three of the four communities in the Pinecrest/417 quadrant. Maybe Trim where one from the north has to cross empty fields and a 4 lane highway, not because of a complicated ramp system, just a terrible location. Moodie is in a pretty hostile environment as well.

uOttawa I would rank as Best of a bad situation since it features an underpass to the canal and plaza on the university side.

The rest are It will do in a pinch IMO.

Place d'Orleans has a pedestrian bridge between a mall and a park-and-ride. Convent Glen and Cyrville have no on/off ramps.
Blair and Tremblay have a pedestrian bridges over the highway.
St-Laurent has a tunnel under the 417.
Lees' entrance abuts to an urban-ish street.
Queensview is nowhere near a ramp and will have a pedestrian bridge.
Bayshore is next to a highway but unaffected by on/off ramps. Decent integration in the community.

Tremblay could go to Holy Hell if we consider the walk to the RCMP HQ, but my feeling is that few take transit.

I'm counting 5 holy hells, 9 it will do in a pinch and 1 best of a bad situation. I'm missing 2. Hurdman? The highway is too far/doesn't impact access to potential ridership. Not sure which one would be number 17.

[Aylmer]

Sorry, that was a botched reformulation. I was originally going to say that only 6 are "best of a bad situation", but flipped it without accounting for the "in a pinch" cases.

Best of a bad situation:

• uOttawa
• Lees
• Cyrville (arguable)
• Covent Glen (arguable)
• Queensview

In a pinch

• Walkley
• Bayshore
• Saint Laurent (originally in the "best of a bad situation", but downgraded because it's inaccessible to anything east of the interchange and not reasonably accessible to the south of the highway)
• Tremblay (thanks only to the fact it's too inaccessible to anything but the train station)
• Place d'Orléans (the pedestrian bridge gets you from a parking lot to another parking lot

Holy Hell

• Trim
• Jeanne D'Arc
• Montreal
• Blair
• Lincoln Fields
• Pinecrest
• Moodie

[J.OT13]

Thanks for that. I agree on most counts.

If Lincoln Fields was under Carling with entrances on both sides, and a pedestrian bridge was built to the Lincoln Fields Shopping Centre redevelopment, it would make a world of difference. But that's a lot of "ifs".

Blair to me is a solid In a pinch because no one has to cross the highway ramps. Not a terribly great environment as it's surrounded by parking, but I wouldn't feel in any sort of danger heading to any destination within walking distance.

[J.OT13]

Gladstone/Corso Italia station, an infill station between Carling/Dow's Lake and Bayview.






https://twitter.com/rail613/status/1333500420518502407



https://www.railfans.ca/otrain/line-...s/corso-italia

[J.OT13]

One minute video of Montreal Station progress. New highway overpasses were built over the last year to the side. Old highway overpasses will be demolished this weekend to make way for the Confederation Line RoW and station.

• Video Link

Media event at future Montreal Road station.

• Video Link


https://twitter.com/StephenBlais/sta...52851089608704


https://twitter.com/mflalonde/status...51041067077635

[J.OT13]

The old highway bridge is now gone, making room for the O-Train RoW and station.



https://twitter.com/TimTierney/statu...49612649144320

[J.OT13]

Before and after.


https://twitter.com/TimTierney/statu...86848712302594

and after... Can't wait to see the progress next year.


https://www.railfans.ca/otrain/line-1-stations/montreal

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It still boggles my mind that a whole group of someones looked at the plans for that station and thought to themselves "yeah that looks like a pleasant spot for a station. Who wouldn't want to cross a highway interchange, walk on minimum-width sidewalks under an overpass beside 70 km/h traffic, and wait on a platform in the middle of a highway with the barest weather protection?"

This station is going to be entirely about feed from buses and drop-offs. Doubt there will be any notable numbers of walk-ons.

[Aylmer]

It doesn't even really serve that function well though. There's no bus loop or waiting facilities to accommodate it as a transfer point, or even really much bus traffic to the location at all (most buses converge on Blair). And for the bus passengers who may still use the station, it's not an enviable environment for a wait of any length. It highlights how Ottawa has managed to both spend a lot on its system, yet still cheap out on some pretty basic elements of customer convenience, comfort, and dignity. It's beautiful, cathedral-like stations that don't protect passengers from rain or sleet. It's multi-million dollar stations without nearby crosswalks. It's Montreal Rd station being designed to apparently facilitate neither walk-up, drive-up, or bus transfer passengers respectably.

Don't get me wrong, it's a necessary project and we'd have been fools not to pursue it. I can even live with the alignment. But the execution seems to so fail again and again in considering its users. Not everywhere, but in too many places and obvious ways for an investment this significant.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It doesn't even really serve that function well though. There's no bus loop or waiting facilities to accommodate it as a transfer point, or even really much bus traffic to the location at all (most buses converge on Blair). And for the bus passengers who may still use the station, it's not an enviable environment for a wait of any length. It highlights how Ottawa has managed to both spend a lot on its system, yet still cheap out on some pretty basic elements of customer convenience, comfort, and dignity.

Maybe because I grew up in Toronto using the Scarborough RT, I don't see some of this as a huge deal. I see this Montreal Rd station a lot like McCowan or Midland station in Toronto. Buses won't be terminating here. They'll simply be dropping off riders en route. So no huge bus loop is needed.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It doesn't even really serve that function well though. There's no bus loop or waiting facilities to accommodate it as a transfer point, or even really much bus traffic to the location at all (most buses converge on Blair). And for the bus passengers who may still use the station, it's not an enviable environment for a wait of any length. It highlights how Ottawa has managed to both spend a lot on its system, yet still cheap out on some pretty basic elements of customer convenience, comfort, and dignity. It's beautiful, cathedral-like stations that don't protect passengers from rain or sleet. It's multi-million dollar stations without nearby crosswalks. It's Montreal Rd station being designed to apparently facilitate neither walk-up, drive-up, or bus transfer passengers respectably.

Don't get me wrong, it's a necessary project and we'd have been fools not to pursue it. I can even live with the alignment. But the execution seems to so fail again and again in considering its users. Not everywhere, but in too many places and obvious ways for an investment this significant.

There are certain places on Stage 2 in which sacrificing some breadth to the suburbs could have resulted in a better system, especially given that the suburbs seem to be commuter-only trains. Extensions past Blair, Algonquin College and South Keys seem excessive.

Future-proof it, sure, but making a better aligned tunnel section in the western segment (following Carling) might've been a better use of money.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

There's no bus loop or waiting facilities to accommodate it as a transfer point, or even really much bus traffic to the location at all (most buses converge on Blair). And for the bus passengers who may still use the station, it's not an enviable environment for a wait of any length.

I don't always see the bus loop as a good solution. Often times, is much more efficient to drop off passengers at the door of the rapid transit (RT) station, when the RT has entrances on both sides of the street, like Montreal and Jeanne d'Arc which will be used as secondary transfer stations. I wish they would have kept Lincoln Fields under Carling for that configuration in order to make those transfers more efficient.

As for the environment, I feel like Montreal's bus stops will be superior in protecting passengers from increment weather since it will be fully covered, compared to the very open environments at Blair or Hurdman, where only a few bus shelters are available for thousands of commuters per hour.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Maybe because I grew up in Toronto using the Scarborough RT, I don't see some of this as a huge deal. I see this Montreal Rd station a lot like McCowan or Midland station in Toronto. Buses won't be terminating here. They'll simply be dropping off riders en route. So no huge bus loop is needed.

Is Montreal an efficient secondary transfer? It's situated at the edge of the inner-Greenbelt, so could we have a bus route continue east? Very few, if any, people would travel between Beacon Hill and points along St-Joseph in Orleans. Maybe we could have a Blackburn-Blair route going thorough Montreal? I feel like it would only be efficient if Montreal serves as a terminus stations for bus routes coming from Beacon Hill or Blackburn, which would make a bus loop more efficient in this case.

Originally Posted by wave46

Future-proof it, sure, but making a better aligned tunnel section in the western segment (following Carling) might've been a better use of money.

Carling vs Scott-Richmond, my preference was always Scott-Richmond for several reasons. The Richmond corridor has more density today and similar TOD potential. Though Carling has two hospitals along its route (one of which is moving to Trillium), Scott-Richmond has a few destinations such as Westboro and Wellington West. And finally, the route to Carling would have been complicated, requiring 90 degree turns or mass expropriation and the severing of the Tunney's stretch. Scott-Richmond is much more efficient since the RoW is straighter and already exists (Scott Street trench and Byron Tramway Park for the tunnel).

I do agree that Carling should eventually be served by rapid transit. Thanks to its wide RoW, we have plenty of rom to integrate a transit solution.

[J.OT13]

REM platform screen doors coming in.




https://www.facebook.com/REMgrandmtl...type=3&theater

[J.OT13]

Progress on the flyover that will bring the O-Train from north of the 174 past Blair to the median before Montreal station. Not my video.

• Video Link

[J.OT13]

Part of Lincoln Fields station currently being demolished for O-Train expansion. This station will be the transfer point between the Algonquin and Moodie branches.




https://www.facebook.com/LostOttawa/...00664316699433

[esquire]

^ God I love the 80s aesthetic of those Ottawa Transitway stations.

[niwell]

That was my station for a number of years in the mid-2000s! I assume they are not knocking down the main part, as it does still look great. The transitway station designs bring back a lot of nostalgia for me.

[J.OT13]

Here's an overview of the station last month. The water filled hole is roughly where the O-Train RoW and station will be placed, so we can see the part of the station that needs to be demolished now for work to continue.

There's a new bus loop between the left side station structure and the hole. OC confirmed that the recently removed Central Transitway's bus shelters will be used for this new temporary bus loop.

By 2025, the entire 80s Lincoln Fields station structures will be gone, replaced with a new hub O-Train station and a new bus loop.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Temporary bus loop at Lincoln Fields. It will be a major transfer station between outbound Lines 1 and 3.


https://twitter.com/OC_Transpo/statu...85472542289921

I'll miss the look of the old Transitway structures. The distinctive red-pipping is highly visible from afar and unmistakably says "transit". The generous awnings provided good weather protection and they included some enclosed heated areas.

The new bus loops are bear, with a few basic bus shelters. No heated areas.
Although there are varied opinions on this, I'm glad that a few stations will keep some of the old infrastructure, providing a glimpse into Ottawa's transit pass. Stations such as Blair and Place d'Orleans.


https://www.railfans.ca/otrain/line-1-stations/blair


https://www.railfans.ca/otrain/line-...place-dorleans