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  #1981  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 5:55 PM
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No turning back now on LeBreton Flats, Durrell says

By: David Sali, OBJ
Published: Feb 23, 2018 7:36am EST


Perhaps better than anyone in the city of Ottawa, Jim Durrell can appreciate many residents’ reluctance to believe there will be an NHL arena at LeBreton Flats until they actually see it with their own eyes.

Durrell, after all, was the capital’s mayor three decades ago when he and then-regional chair Andy Haydon tried to work out an agreement with the National Capital Commission to redevelop the coveted 21-hectare property just west of downtown.

As everyone knows all too well, those efforts failed, and the mostly vacant land remains to many a symbol of how the tentacles of bureaucracy continue to hold back progress in Ottawa.

Not surprisingly, then, Durrell understands the public’s somewhat muted reaction to last month’s news that the NCC has reached an agreement in principle to hand over ownership of the property to the Ottawa Senators-backed RendezVous LeBreton Group, which plans to build a new home for the city’s NHL franchise on the site.

But the 71-year-old businessman says he’s convinced the multibillion-dollar proposal to turn the Flats into a bustling residential, commercial and entertainment mecca is the real deal.

“I haven’t even a shadow of doubt in my mind,” he says. “I don’t blame people for being a touch cynical wondering if it ever will happen because it’s laid fallow for so long. But it’s on the right track now.”

The NCC and RendezVous LeBreton will spend the next 18 months establishing a master design plan for the lands, and NCC chief executive Mark Kristmanson told reporters last month there are still “challenging” negotiations ahead before a final agreement is reached. But the agency also said once a deal is officially sealed, shovels could be in the ground as early as next year.

Durrell thinks that timeline might be a tad optimistic, but he still envisions the Senators taking to the ice in a state-of-the-art new arena by the middle of the next decade.

“I would be extremely surprised if our hockey team wasn’t playing in there six seasons from now, and I would hope five seasons from now,” he says.

Asked why he’s so bullish, Durrell points to the track record of lead RendezVous LeBreton partner John Ruddy and his Trinity Development Group, which has built nearly 30 million square feet of commercial real estate across Canada.

“When you look at somebody like John Ruddy, a very reputable player involved … We now have the people with the ability to get it financed and we have the concurrence for the most part with the city and the NCC. They’ve gone, in my humble estimation, far enough that there’s not going to be any turning back now,” he says.

“I think all of the players involved – the NCC, Trinity Developments, the Senators – they know a lot more than is being discussed (publicly). A lot of work has been done on this behind the scenes to estimate the financing costs, what works, what doesn’t work, how much money is realistically available to put a project of this magnitude together. If those numbers didn’t work, then frankly one or all of the parties would’ve already bowed out.”

The former politician, who helped lead the drive to bring the Senators back to the NHL and served as the team’s first president, says too much time and money has already been spent on the project to have it fall apart.

“Millions of dollars have been spent already just in getting to this point,” says Durrell, who is now president of a car dealership. “You don’t spend that type of money on just a whim. I can’t imagine it not happening.”

For a glimpse into how the project could reshape the city, he looks west to Edmonton, where the Alberta capital has revitalized its downtown core thanks to a massive residential and commercial redevelopment anchored by Rogers Place, the $600-million new home of the Oilers.

“Like Edmonton, now the momentum is there,” Durrell says. “Success feeds success in business, and having a major entertainment centre downtown just spawns automatic development because it’s a place people want to be.

“You need people living downtown. People will live downtown when they can work downtown. They’ll live and work downtown if there are places to go and shop and restaurants to eat in and entertainment places. All of those things, regardless of how times change and transportation changes, all those things make imminent sense.”

Durrell likes to break down large-scale development projects into five-year segments because they’re easier to envision. He says once an arena is up and running five or six years from now, more condos and shops will inevitably follow.

“It then becomes a snowball as it unfolds. This thing is unfolding nicely right now.”

Ultimately, he adds, the redevelopment of LeBreton Flats will make Ottawa a better place to live, work and play.

“You can attract better people when you have cities that work. And this city has all of the makings of a city that works. LeBreton Flats coming to fruition will just accentuate that.”

http://www.obj.ca/article/no-turning-back-now-lebreton-flats-durrell-says
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  #1982  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 6:44 PM
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I'd really like indoor publics tennis courts but a man can dream...
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  #1983  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 7:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McKellarDweller View Post
I wish an indoor waterpark like this one going up in Calgary were part of the proposal:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/se...ds-largest-ymca-surf-simulator-1.4548676

Yes, we all get it that the land is expensive, and the up front development costs would be enormous, but once it were open in downtown Ottawa, it would be a busy major attraction, and a licence to print money.
I figured that would be a good use for the CTC after the Sens move. Yes it isn't downtown, but the building is there already and what else are you going to do with it?
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  #1984  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by McKellarDweller View Post
I wish an indoor waterpark like this one going up in Calgary were part of the proposal:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/se...ds-largest-ymca-surf-simulator-1.4548676

Yes, we all get it that the land is expensive, and the up front development costs would be enormous, but once it were open in downtown Ottawa, it would be a busy major attraction, and a licence to print money.
A downtown indoor waterpark would be good, but I wonder if the region could support another waterpark with Calypso, Alottawata (supposedly still coming soon), and Mont Cascades.
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  #1985  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2018, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinbottawa View Post
A downtown indoor waterpark would be good, but I wonder if the region could support another waterpark with Calypso, Alottawata (supposedly still coming soon), and Mont Cascades.
An indoor waterpark downtown would serve a completely different market than the outdoor ones. First, it would be downtown and accessible by transit instead of a 30 minute 'drive' to the ones outside the city. Second, it would be operational for 12 months of the year instead of just 2.5 months. For thrills, an indoor park would not compete with an outdoor facility so they would not significantly suffer.
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  #1986  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 3:44 PM
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I posted a link to this article in the Trillium Line thread. A few months old and not directly related to LeBretton, but it does mention the Sens moving downtown, so I thought I would post it here anyway:

Quote:
Suburban arenas a problem for NHL
League's best attendance happens when the rink is downtown.

By KEVIN MCGRAN Sports Reporter
Thu., Nov. 23, 2017


This wee, little Maple Leafs road trip to Florida and Carolina offer a window into two of the league’s weaker franchises in terms of attendance.

Both need to make the playoffs to get attention in their markets. Both play to lots of empty seats. Both have arenas that are in the middle of nowhere and hard to get to.

It’s hard to support a bad team that is hard to get to.

Florida is in a stronger position than Carolina in terms of ownership and its local future. No one is trying to poach the Panthers.

The Hurricanes, however, are looking for new owners. And there’s a belief out there that the team could be on the move to . . . well, pick your favourite possibility: Quebec? Houston? Seattle? Who knows.

They’re much like Arizona, with suburban rinks.

The league’s strongest markets have downtown arenas.

The Ottawa Senators — a Canadian problem-child in terms of attendance issues — also have a suburban rink, and are looking to move to a downtown location.

Downtowns are typically easy to get to. Many of the fans will just go from work to dinner to the game then home. Seems a simple idea.

Last week in Montreal, I asked NHL commissioner Gary Bettman about ensuring future teams are downtown rather than in the suburbs. He acknowledged he’s noticed the issue.

“It depends on the market. Some markets are suburban markets. Some areas don’t really have a downtown area,” said Bettman. “It appears the evolution of urban planning, of cities, of the Millennials, and Gen-Zs are living their lives, the focus tends to be downtown.”

New rinks used to be part of an entertainment district. Now cities plan far more, including retail and residential complexes.

“That seems to be, from an urban planning standpoint, the wave of the future and it seems to be a positive in terms of the way people are living.”

Bettman said studies he’s read indicate young people are not getting their drivers’ licences at the same rate as in the past, preferring to live close enough to work to walk, or take Uber or transit.

“The movement downtown, I think, is consistent with that trend,” said Bettman.

Now, it could be argued that “downtown” as Toronto and New York know it does not exist the same way in Raleigh and Fort Lauderdale.

But putting teams on the edge of the suburbs seems a bad idea and it seems like the league and cities have figured that out.
https://www.thestar.com/sports/breakaway_blog/2017/11/23/suburban-arenas-a-problem-for-nhl.html
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  #1987  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 4:15 PM
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The only teams that have suburban arenas in the NHL are Ottawa, Arizona, and Florida. You're all welcome to take a guess what their attendances all have in common.
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  #1988  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
The only teams that have suburban arenas in the NHL are Ottawa, Arizona, and Florida. You're all welcome to take a guess what their attendances all have in common.
Yup

I'd add Honda Center as another that's surrounded by a sea of parking(with nothing in reasonable walking distance), but they're not lighting up the attendance charts either.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck etc etc

The CTC is in a terrible spot right now. Even in Kanata, there are much better locations where it could have been built(like closer to the Kanata Town Center or Kanata Centrum). I have no doubt that the Sens will do much much better in Lebreton.
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  #1989  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 4:54 PM
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^^^ Carolina too, but that doesn't disprove your point.
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  #1990  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ars View Post
Yup

I'd add Honda Center as another that's surrounded by a sea of parking(with nothing in reasonable walking distance), but they're not lighting up the attendance charts either.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck etc etc

The CTC is in a terrible spot right now. Even in Kanata, there are much better locations where it could have been built(like closer to the Kanata Town Center or Kanata Centrum). I have no doubt that the Sens will do much much better in Lebreton.
They will do better than now, but people acting like attendance was always an issue is weird. They have been top 10 in attendance 8 times since 2000
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  #1991  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ars View Post
I'd add Honda Center as another that's surrounded by a sea of parking(with nothing in reasonable walking distance), but they're not lighting up the attendance charts either.
Anaheim is kind of suburban but I don't generally include it for the sake that it could be much more suburban in a sprawling city like LA. It's still pretty central if you're including places like Riverside and San Bernadino. Places like Anaheim and San Jose do exceedingly well for attendance and they don't get enough credit for it.

Carolina could be considered suburban too but the way that Raleigh-Durham is set up is a bit weird. It's situated sort of between the two, much closer to Raleigh. Infinitely better than their old Greensboro location.
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  #1992  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Stevenson View Post
They will do better than now, but people acting like attendance was always an issue is weird. They have been top 10 in attendance 8 times since 2000
I agree, I think Ottawa has good attendance in spite of the location, which definitely should be taken into consideration when discussing attendance. Although I know some people will counter that by saying that attendance used to be "papered", but I don't know how much of a difference that actually made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Anaheim is kind of suburban but I don't generally include it for the sake that it could be much more suburban in a sprawling city like LA. It's still pretty central if you're including places like Riverside and San Bernadino. Places like Anaheim and San Jose do exceedingly well for attendance and they don't get enough credit for it.

Carolina could be considered suburban too but the way that Raleigh-Durham is set up is a bit weird. It's situated sort of between the two, much closer to Raleigh. Infinitely better than their old Greensboro location.
I think it definitely helps that those cities have good, perennial playoff teams.
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  #1993  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Stevenson View Post
They will do better than now, but people acting like attendance was always an issue is weird. They have been top 10 in attendance 8 times since 2000
I think what the article is highlighting is teams with suburban arenas are more dependant on a good team with potential of doing well in the playoffs to generate higher attendance. Teams with an urban arena are better able to have reasonable attendance in years when the team is more lacklustre.
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  #1994  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 10:36 PM
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I wonder though if the causation isn't the other direction, i.e. teams with a weak financial base or a lack of local government support are more likely to end up in the suburbs.
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  #1995  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2018, 11:23 PM
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I wonder though if the causation isn't the other direction, i.e. teams with a weak financial base or a lack of local government support are more likely to end up in the suburbs.
Maybe, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the larger your market, the more customers you will have. Someone in Orleans (or even downtown) might go to the occasional game in Kanata, especially if the team is playing well but with the team at LeBretton, and half the travel time, they will likely go to more games.
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  #1996  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Maybe, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the larger your market, the more customers you will have. Someone in Orleans (or even downtown) might go to the occasional game in Kanata, especially if the team is playing well but with the team at LeBretton, and half the travel time, they will likely go to more games.
Maybe, but the CTC is also familiar to a lot of suburbanites (basically a scaled-up Costco). For the people who freak out about downtown parking or freak out about transfers on transit then are they more likely to come out?
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  #1997  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 1:40 AM
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Maybe, but the CTC is also familiar to a lot of suburbanites (basically a scaled-up Costco). For the people who freak out about downtown parking or freak out about transfers on transit then are they more likely to come out?
I would argue that suburbanites are less conserned about going downtown (many work there anyway) than urbanites are about going all the way out past Kanata, almost to Stittsville. Those in the west end who do work downtown can stop off to catch a game after work.

It may be a bit of s transition but in the long run it will be better.
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  #1998  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 1:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Stevenson View Post
They will do better than now, but people acting like attendance was always an issue is weird. They have been top 10 in attendance 8 times since 2000
Attendance has always been an issue with the Sens. Yes they were in good shape numbers wise in attendance however, those numbers were inflated by ticket giveaways. Anywhere from 2000-3000 tickets were given away during non premium game nights up until 2014. Since that happened, attendance has been on the decline. Good thing the original plan of having 20,500 seats in the Palladium never happened.

The LeBreton arena should bring in increased attendance but like I said before, they need to keep the seating at around 17,000 to hopefully create a supply and demand.
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  #1999  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 3:32 AM
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I am an NFL guy but I used to go to Sens games back when they had the Pizza line. Those were the good days, when they had a few household names on the team, scored big points, made big trades and bought big players for the playoffs. Then a combination of the second lockout, $13 tall cans of beer, $20-30 to park in a farm field, a lackluster roster, negligent ownership, and a general lack of buzz around the team killed it for me. I honestly won't attend for a single game unless the downtown arena is built and they start investing in the roster again.
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  #2000  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Harley613 View Post
I am an NFL guy but I used to go to Sens games back when they had the Pizza line. Those were the good days, when they had a few household names on the team, scored big points, made big trades and bought big players for the playoffs. Then a combination of the second lockout, $13 tall cans of beer, $20-30 to park in a farm field, a lackluster roster, negligent ownership, and a general lack of buzz around the team killed it for me. I honestly won't attend for a single game unless the downtown arena is built and they start investing in the roster again.
I understand the sentiment, and hear it all the time, but it does strike me as a little odd. The current team has (arguably) the best defenceman in the world, and just went to within an overtime goal of the Stanley Cup final. If that doesn't get people out to the rink, I'm not sure what will.

The location definitely sucks, but that is the only real entry barrier they have. Ticket prices are much lower than in other Canadian markets (even factoring in parking), tickets are generally available, and $3 gets you there on the bus (and quite efficiently at that). Ottawa has had stretches of very solid attendance, but there is no doubt that this is a fickle fanbase.
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