Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The reason bus ridership in Surrey is so bad is what's the point. In Surrey, if you are not traveling over any bridges, transit is for poor people. Going from point A to point B south of the Fraser, it is much, much faster to drive, without fail.

Most people who would take the bus, but don't, would like to take it to Skytrain to get over the river. But for a lot of people, like in South Surrey, or Cloverdale, or Langley, its almost an hour long bus ride just to get to King George station. So again, what's the point? I'm pretty sure, that even driving in traffic from Cloverdale to downtown takes less time than transit.

If Skytrain were extended in 1 of the 3 directions it could go (Guildford, Langley, or Newtown) you would see a ridership explosion. For example, if people in Cloverdale could take a quick bus trip down 64th ave, to a station at 64th and KG, more people would. Same with if the train went to TCH and had a mammoth PnR.

It's not so much about denstity, as it is about getting it that much closer to more people. Broadway is a different beast. You already have ridership, as well there are people who don't take transit there because they don't like riding the full B-Lines. You would be providing more destinations, attracting more riders to the system.

While I do agree that surrey needs to have skytrain extended to at least guildford and or south down KG.

I do believe the bigger problem is the need for better and more frequent bus service. Also the introduction of B-line servicing like the 99 not the 97.

[twoNeurons]

I wonder if they could market the M-Line West to Cambie as "Cheaper" than extending the platforms on the Expo Line.

That doesn't guarantee we'll get all the way to UBC on the first pass but connecting these lines in a triangle would epic.

The Athlete's village would become the most connected place in Vancouver.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I am willing to bet that the Broadway Corridor will more appose skytrain then welcome it. That causes huge roadblocks for development, so let us squeak through the Evergreen Line while we work those PR problems out.

Well, I'm sure the welcome mat is also rolled out for a SkyTrain connecting a cow pasture in Hope to a gravel pit in Princeton.

My point is that just because the locals want SkyTrain doesn't mean they get it. The environment (and density) has to be right.

UBC/Broadway-- despite the hurdles -- is perfect for a major investment in rapid rail. The province's largest employment centres (downtown, UBC, VGH Campus), thick density for most of the route, excellent connections. It will be useful to people across the region and visitors from across the province and the country.

The Coquitlam extension, while it is a nice to have, will move a fraction of the people that would use the Broadway Line.

[mr.x]

^ well, they'd have to throw in $130+ million on expediting 20 more trains for the Canada Line if that were to ever happen.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I wonder if they could market the M-Line West to Cambie as "Cheaper" than extending the platforms on the Expo Line.

That doesn't guarantee we'll get all the way to UBC on the first pass but connecting these lines in a triangle would epic.

The Athlete's village would become the most connected place in Vancouver.

Well I'd certainly prefer that option rather than extending Expo, but there's a few issues:

1. More ridership on the C-Line. I don't know the details of the contract with ProTrans, but they'd need to start using more trains for starters.

2. There will still be the same number, if not more, trying to get on the 99 at City Hall station. There's no loop mechanism around there, it would create a bit of a traffic nightmare.

That being said, do it anyway.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I wonder if they could market the M-Line West to Cambie as "Cheaper" than extending the platforms on the Expo Line.

That doesn't guarantee we'll get all the way to UBC on the first pass but connecting these lines in a triangle would epic.

The Athlete's village would become the most connected place in Vancouver.

That's exactly my thinking...

I can't be the only one who is appalled at the $3.1 billion pricetag for Expo Line improvements. I know that pricetag includes a 7 km extension in Surrey (which we should expect to cost under $1 billion, based on $100m/km plus some train cars). But that still leaves more than $2 billion being poured into Expo in the next 10 years to increase its capacity, mainly on the section that the Canada Line could relieve.

I bet we could connect the lines at Broadway & Cambie for under $1 billion, even with buying additional train cars for both lines.

$3.1 billion to extend Expo and increase Expo capacity
vs.
$1 billion to extend Expo + $800 million to extend Millennium to Cambie + $200 million to buy extra trains

With the latter plan, we would still have more than $1 billion left over to spend on Expo capacity wherever else it's needed, but we'd have two lines into downtown accessible by the entire network, and a head start on the line to UBC.

[WarrenC12]

Expo line capacity can still be expanded with simply more trains, that's the part I don't get. More trains and frequency first! I think the $3.1b plan is a pipe dream. Spend that for the UBC line and be done with it.

[twoNeurons]

No kidding. Other systems max their trainlength before expanding platforms.

[BCPhil]

Yeah, the money could be better spent engineering and buying some C cars for the Mk II. We could get Bombardier to design us some that are a perfect length for our platforms. If you could get a 5 or 6 car train to perfectly fit the platforms end to end, with open walkways between all the cars, it would be a very efficient use of space.

Plus it would feel more grown-up and we could lose all the talk of "toy trains" for good.

And I think you would really need that kind of capacity on the Broadway Corridor between Commercial and UBC too.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

If you could get a 5 or 6 car train to perfectly fit the platforms end to end, with open walkways between all the cars, it would be a very efficient use of space.

MKII cars were designed specifically to maximize 80m platforms.

A-C-B + A-B (3-Car + 2-Car)
All doors are a perfect fit for the platform.

No need for a special car. The 3 + 2 model is far superior to a 5-car model.

When a train goes in for maintenance, you may only need to service half the car.

As it stands now, they need to expand the yard at Edmonds to handle a 3-car train... which will probably be expensive.

There is little to gain from a long tube, compared to the trade-offs in flexibility.

[officedweller]

I recall one of the issues about having a full length walk-through train is that the carhouse / maintenance facility at Edmonds cannot accommodate a full 80m train (so they need to be able to split up easily / remotely, which articulated cars cannot do).
Given the space constraints at Edmonds - that would probably mean a new carhouse / maintenance facility elsewhere at huge cost.

i.e. Toronto has had to build a new carhouse at Wilson Yards to acommodate the new articulated Toronto Rocket train from Bombardier.

Also, I think the Expo Line capacity increase also assumes that orders for new cars will have been placed and filled by the time it is completed.

Remember that Surrey is the fastest growing municipality in the region. If westside Vancouver or UBC want to acommodate several 100,000 new residents in the next decade, then maybe the UBC Line can be bumped up? It would certainly place density closer to downtown.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Remember that Surrey is the fastest growing municipality in the region. If westside Vancouver or UBC want to acommodate several 100,000 new residents in the next decade, then maybe the UBC Line can be bumped up? It would certainly place density closer to downtown.

True, but once the Evergreen line is up and running, that should free up the Surrey leg of the Expo line to have full train frequency.

This all assumes the Evergreen line will become one with the M-Line west of Lougheed, and some sort of limited run or shuttle will operate between Columbia and Lougheed.

[officedweller]

I think a lot of the ridership demand still comes from Burnaby though.
I recall that the same service plan that proposed the M-Line shuttle also proposed short-turning trains at Metrotown, which suggests that capacity demands are also high west of there (i.e. the same number of trains as currently go through since the M-Line branches after Columbia) - then tack on increasing Surrey ridership.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Remember that Surrey is the fastest growing municipality in the region. If westside Vancouver or UBC want to acommodate several 100,000 new residents in the next decade, then maybe the UBC Line can be bumped up? It would certainly place density closer to downtown.

Well, UBC is doing its part for growth, in spite of the meddling of
metro Vancouver and Derrick corrigan

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think a lot of the ridership demand still comes from Burnaby though.
I recall that the same service plan that proposed the M-Line shuttle also proposed short-turning trains at Metrotown, which suggests that capacity demands are also high west of there (i.e. the same number of trains as currently go through since the M-Line branches after Columbia) - then tack on increasing Surrey ridership.

If you look at the ridership report recently posted here, it suggests that trains leaving Scott Rd for downtown are already at 100% capacity during peak hours. Much like trains leaving Broadway at the same time.

I'd suggest that the whole Expo line needs more capacity, at least during peak hours. By picking places and trains to short track at certain times, you get a lot more flexibility as compared to inter-lining the M-Line (I hope that's the right word).

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I recall one of the issues about having a full length walk-through train is that the carhouse / maintenance facility at Edmonds cannot accommodate a full 80m train (so they need to be able to split up easily / remotely, which articulated cars cannot do).
Given the space constraints at Edmonds - that would probably mean a new carhouse / maintenance facility elsewhere at huge cost.

...

Perhaps the new Evergreen OMC should be built for maintaining 3-car (A-C-B) train sets, and let Edmonds continue maintaining the shorter train sets.

If Edmonds OMC becomes obsolete a few decades from now, build a bigger & better OMC in Surrey.

[tybuilding]

An OMC could go down near the Patullo Bridge.

[Metro-One]

Double post

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Well, I'm sure the welcome mat is also rolled out for a SkyTrain connecting a cow pasture in Hope to a gravel pit in Princeton.

My point is that just because the locals want SkyTrain doesn't mean they get it. The environment (and density) has to be right.

UBC/Broadway-- despite the hurdles -- is perfect for a major investment in rapid rail. The province's largest employment centres (downtown, UBC, VGH Campus), thick density for most of the route, excellent connections. It will be useful to people across the region and visitors from across the province and the country.

The Coquitlam extension, while it is a nice to have, will move a fraction of the people that would use the Broadway Line.

I dont think you quite understand how the proposal and implementation stages of a mega project work... Especially in a society such as ours.

Anyways, they really should include the M-Line extension to Cambie as part of the Evergreen Line project (or at least fast track that portion of the M-Line extension). Would this portion also be among the cheapest portions of the M-Line extension for a good chunk of it would be built as an elevated guideway?

[nname]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

If you look at the ridership report recently posted here, it suggests that trains leaving Scott Rd for downtown are already at 100% capacity during peak hours. Much like trains leaving Broadway at the same time.

I'd suggest that the whole Expo line needs more capacity, at least during peak hours. By picking places and trains to short track at certain times, you get a lot more flexibility as compared to inter-lining the M-Line (I hope that's the right word).

2007 stat:
Expo Line Broadway -> Main: 92% (11000 pphpd)
Millennium Line to Commerical: 82% (2700 pphpd)
Expo Line across SkyBridge: 65% (5000 pphpd)

So, comparing this data, only about half of the total capacity is really needed for Surrey