Alto High Speed Rail

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Mousel

There's a lot of talk about Union Station here. I can't say I expected that to be a real consideration but I can't get over how insane and utterly transformational it would be for Ottawa if it happened.

Apparently in some documents the new Ottawa station is also called Ottawa Union Station, since it was initially built for CN and CP (before VIA was formed), so I wouldn't read too much into use of that name.

[Dengler Avenue]

Just curious, who’s going to the open house next week?
I’m trying to figure out parking. (I’d like to take transit, but waiting for the bus at night would be too much when I’d still need to wake up early for work the next morning.)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Just curious, who’s going to the open house next week?
I’m trying to figure out parking. (I’d like to take transit, but waiting for the bus at night would be too much when I’d still need to wake up early for work the next morning.)

I hope to go.

[Dengler Avenue]

Hello [],

Thank you for your interest in Alto.

Alto open house information events feature themed kiosks that participants can explore at their own pace. Visitors are free to move between kiosks, connect with project experts, ask questions, and learn about all aspects of the project. In each city, including Ottawa, the Alto team visits, two four-hour sessions (11 a.m. to 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. to 9 p.m.) are given to accommodate the greatest number of people.

As this is not a conference-style presentation and visitors are welcome to spend as much time as they wish during the open house, dinner will be offered to visitors.

Your input is important to us, and we look forward to hearing your thoughts during the consultation process.

We wish you an excellent day,


The Alto Team

I just got a reply from Alto. There will be dinner for the evening sessions.

[vtecyo]

They seem to have shut down the consultation part of the map - they must have launched it too early...

Anyway - here's an interesting tidbit:

https://en.consultation.altotrain.ca/reinventing-travel-between-toronto-and-quebec-city

...The high frequency of departures—estimated every 30 minutes during peak periods, depending on the route—and schedules tailored to travel needs will provide great flexibility for passengers. For example, based on the current planning for the Montréal–Toronto route, 20 to 30  departures are expected each day....

Let's assume they have a 16 hour operating day (6am to midnight) - 30 departures day is about every 32 minutes, and 20 would be every 48 minutes. That's pretty darn good for intercity rail.

As a comparison - in this next few weeks it looks VIA only has 5 trains each way each day on Ottawa-Montreal. They have a ~14 hour operating schedule or so - so that's less than 1 train every two hours on average - although they're closer together in the afternoons.

So even limiting it to a train every 45 minutes would be a massive improvement.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by vtecyo

They seem to have shut down the consultation part of the map - they must have launched it too early...

Anyway - here's an interesting tidbit:

https://en.consultation.altotrain.ca/reinventing-travel-between-toronto-and-quebec-city



Let's assume they have a 16 hour operating day (6am to midnight) - 30 departures day is about every 32 minutes, and 20 would be every 48 minutes. That's pretty darn good for intercity rail.

As a comparison - in this next few weeks it looks VIA only has 5 trains each way each day on Ottawa-Montreal. They have a ~14 hour operating schedule or so - so that's less than 1 train every two hours on average - although they're closer together in the afternoons.

So even limiting it to a train every 45 minutes would be a massive improvement.

The consultation map is still there, but it has been moved to a new URL:

https://en.consultation.altotrain.ca/sha...with-high-speed-rail/places/interact-map

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by vtecyo

They seem to have shut down the consultation part of the map - they must have launched it too early...

Anyway - here's an interesting tidbit:

Let's assume they have a 16 hour operating day (6am to midnight) - 30 departures day is about every 32 minutes, and 20 would be every 48 minutes. That's pretty darn good for intercity rail.

As a comparison - in this next few weeks it looks VIA only has 5 trains each way each day on Ottawa-Montreal. They have a ~14 hour operating schedule or so - so that's less than 1 train every two hours on average - although they're closer together in the afternoons.

So even limiting it to a train every 45 minutes would be a massive improvement.

Intresting. For sure the cost of a nearly entirely new route means they would want to maximize and really take the lions share of trips in the coridoor.

Actually frequent security free come when you want travel could be just as good as higher speed rail for the actual traveller but I doubt either of those will be the result. So a 1 hour 10 minute train that leaves every 20 minutes and you don't need an advance ticket for essentially makes your whole journey the same as even a 30 minute high speed train where you if you miss your departure you forfeit your ticket because you need to plan to be there 30 minutes early just in case. Meanwhile the operating costs of running more less full trains and leaving some revenue on the table from dynamic pricing is more than made up by the reduced capital costs of a much slower train.

I bet we get more of a Eurostar model rather than Japanese HSR though. There is of course no driving option Paris to London so the last minute surge in prices only competes with air tickets that do the same but if you've ever taken it the whole procedure really cuts into its competitiveness.

[misterg]

It really doesn't make sense to me the need for two stations in the Montreal metro area so close together. I feel it would just slow down the route and adds extra cost with little value.

I think what would make the most sense would be to have it in the empty space between the Côte-de-Liesse station for the new REM/Suburban Rail Line 15 and the REM Montpellier station with connections to both stations on either side. This would allow for a a fast direct connection to downtown via the REM and maybe Laval in the future with a much needed REM extension. That way there is no need to tunnel but the option is open to in the future if needed. I feel like the current Line 15 would help provide some alignment for the Alto tracks as well.

With respect to Ottawa as much as I vote for Union station to be used I doubt they will see the costs as justifiable when Via Rail/Tremblay is sitting right there in the open with an LRT connection. Additionally the site says this for their stations:

Urban Integration: a strategic location for carefully planned urban development and diversified housing, including affordable housing.
Economic activity: job creation and development of mixed environments (businesses, offices, community spaces).
Sustainable mobility: connection to existing networks (buses, subways, bicycle paths, carpooling, etc.) and facilities that promote a seamless transfer between modes.

Comparably the existing via rail station has much more land available to have spurred development built around it than Union station. Union is pretty much bound by Parliament, the canal, the chateau, and the NAC on about 1/2 of its perimeter, additionally with height limits all around it. That being said if they save money on tunnelling and cutting Laval in Montreal, selfishly this could go towards tunnelling for Union in Ottawa haha!

I'll be very interested to see where the trends in the commentary on the maps goes. Impressed with the website so far!

[Tesladom]

Would be interesting to see if they also build a vehicle bridge at Chute-a-Blondeau? It was always planned to have a bridge here linking 417 and 50

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Would be interesting to see if they also build a vehicle bridge at Chute-a-Blondeau? It was always planned to have a bridge here linking 417 and 50

The weird configuration of A-40 near the provincial border is meant for a hypothetical A-9 meeting up with A-50 at Lachute.

[Aylmer]

Oh God, I hope that's not why they're pursuing the north shore alignment... But if not that, I have a very hard time fathoming the reasoning.

[ArchAficionado]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Oh God, I hope that's not why they're pursuing the north shore alignment... But if not that, I have a very hard time fathoming the reasoning.

FWIW if you're thinking really long-term / large scope, such an alignment would allow the train to connect directly to Mirabel airport, which will almost certainly need to be reinstated as a passenger airport in Montreal's future, since the Dorval airport is laughably undersized, congested, and an embarassment to us as a world destination for travellers from abroad.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by ArchAficionado

FWIW if you're thinking really long-term / large scope, such an alignment would allow the train to connect directly to Mirabel airport, which will almost certainly need to be reinstated as a passenger airport in Montreal's future, since the Dorval airport is laughably undersized, congested, and an embarassment to us as a world destination for travellers from abroad.

Wouldn't it be more likely that St Hubert gets expanded than Mirabel gets rebuilt?

[Aylmer]

Although I agree from a technical perspective, Mirabel was such a political disaster for all involved, I would be very surprised to see anyone keen to reopen that old wound now that it's been demolished.

[harls]

Too bad they didn't build a high speed rail line in 1975 when there was an expropriation free for all in Mirabel.

[Horus]

A push to add Kingston(-ish) to the route?

https://www.kingstonist.com/news/mp-gerr...o-bypass-kingston-may-be-changing-track/

Originally planned to run along a more northern route, bypassing much of southeastern Ontario, the ALTO project is now considering a route that runs closer to larger cities along eastern Lake Ontario, according to Kingston and the Islands Member of Parliament (MP) Mark Gerretsen.

[urbanforest]

Originally Posted by Horus

A push to add Kingston(-ish) to the route?

https://www.kingstonist.com/news/mp-gerr...o-bypass-kingston-may-be-changing-track/

I would love for Kingston to be included but I see no reason whatsoever to dip down out of the way just to put a station in the middle of nowhere north of Kingston. That would provide a bad experience for those in the area and cut into everyone else's travel time.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Horus

A push to add Kingston(-ish) to the route?

https://www.kingstonist.com/news/mp-gerr...o-bypass-kingston-may-be-changing-track/

If Peterborough gets a stop, why not a few more?

Let's add a few more stops to make it really high speed!

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by harls

If Peterborough gets a stop, why not a few more?

Let's add a few more stops to make it really high speed!

I like the idea of using new corridors for the exactly that reason that it allows for maintaining 'slow' local train service to places like Kingston, Belleville, Casselmen, Alexandria, etc. Alto is not a replacement service to those routes, but more as an air travel alternative between major centres. So we need to make sure that it doesn't get turned into a milk run.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

I would love for Kingston to be included but I see no reason whatsoever to dip down out of the way just to put a station in the middle of nowhere north of Kingston. That would provide a bad experience for those in the area and cut into everyone else's travel time.

This push and the stupid comments online ("What about Ottawa Union? For the 100th time) show exactly why it's good that this project is with a hands off private sector developer. Turning this into some city building project for every city en route would worsen the travel time and balloon the cost while killing ridership.

Good reason for Alto to simply rejects the southern routing now.