Downtown Eastside - DTES Issues

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

It's already highly ghetto even when A&N was around. So the building is just going to be boarded up and rot like all the neighbouring buildings.

There are almost no derelict buildings anywhere in the vicinity of the Army and Navy any more. Woodwards was the biggest derelict block, and that's been developed for years. All the heritage buildings have been fixed up, either by BC Housing, or private developers like Solterra and Millennium. Westbank are building new non-market and market rental apartments across Cordova. BC Housing and the City are soon to build new non-market housing across Hastings, but there are no derelict buildings on the site, they were demolished years ago.

The Army and Navy will be the only significant closed buildings in the area, and it seems unlikely that Ms. Cohen will leave it empty and have to pay taxes with no income from the business for long. She'll either look to develop it herself, or sell it on. As she apparently partly closed Army and Navy because she wanted to spend more time on her charity (based in the Dominion Building, that she also owns), selling seems more likely.

[GenWhy?]

"Social Housing" isn't just for the folks without a home or on the street...

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

There are almost no derelict buildings anywhere in the vicinity of the Army and Navy any more. Woodwards was the biggest derelict block, and that's been developed for years. All the heritage buildings have been fixed up, either by BC Housing, or private developers like Solterra and Millennium. Westbank are building new non-market and market rental apartments across Cordova. BC Housing and the City are soon to build new non-market housing across Hastings, but there are no derelict buildings on the site, they were demolished years ago.

The Army and Navy will be the only significant closed buildings in the area, and it seems unlikely that Ms. Cohen will leave it empty and have to pay taxes with no income from the business for long. She'll either look to develop it herself, or sell it on. As she apparently partly closed Army and Navy because she wanted to spend more time on her charity (based in the Dominion Building, that she also owns), selling seems more likely.

Go see what they do with similar buildings in Victoria or London, then tell me those around A&N are not derelict. Heck, the entire neighnourhood is derelict. Even those buildings near Victory Square that have been recently spruced up are now showing signs of dereliction. It's not about the buildings; it's the society and those who manage the community.

Originally Posted by Vancouver_Highrise

@vin the term “ghetto” is highly offensive and a really outdated term.

What would you prefer to call it then? Skid Row? You name it, and I will use it.

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

Lots of opinions but no solutions.

i'm ashamed of some of the comments posted by some of you. We're dealing with human beings who would rather sleep on the street than have a roof over their heads.

None of us know their stories, what their lives have been like. So, judging them based on the fact they have made a choice to live on the street is short sighted.

They need to be evaluated and legally placed into custody for the best possible treatment. Not shipped off to Northern BC so they can be out of sight out of mind.

Apathetic gestures disguised as sympathy for the people there are just like "hands-off" approach that will solve nothing, as is evident of the growing problems at the DTES. Just like not prefering roofs over their heads, many hardcore addicts will not want to be evaluated and are not willing to be placed into custody for treatment. Many need to be forced into treatment with an injunction that the authorities are not willing to commit to.

Originally Posted by logan5

Building more social housing doesn't work. As soon as housing is found for the latest round of squatters in the park, a new round of squatters takes their place. It's a never ending cycle, as Vancouver and Victoria are seen as destination cities for homeless people from across the country. The fair thing to do, if you want to live a homeless lifestyle, is to send them back to the city they came from, or go to a facility.

It's a myth to make us feel better. Most homeless and addicts are locals and from BC, and that definitely highlights the province's failure in taking responsibility to tackle and solve the problem that's plaguing us forever.

[GenWhy?]

Gentrification has its charms I guess.

[Vancouver_Highrise]

It seems like Vin has a lot of opinions but likely has done nothing to help support or make changes to the DTES. Typical privileged perspective. People like you are the problem.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Vancouver_Highrise

It seems like Vin has a lot of opinions but likely has done nothing to help support or make changes to the DTES. Typical privileged perspective. People like you are the problem.

It’s the “just get rid of them” point of view. Put them out of sight. But they don’t really disappear.

I empathize with the desire to sweep away the problems of addiction in our society. They are complicated. But I don’t think that much work has actually been done to address them, or not the right kind of work. We overfund police and underfund social programs. At its core we don’t address the underlying family issues, the roots of addiction that began in childhood. We need a societal shift. We need more people working in healing roles and less people working meaningless jobs they hate that just feed into a capitalist, overly-consumptive black hole. The DTES really isn’t that big. The bigger problem is the fact that millions of us drive through there, maybe a part of our heart breaks, maybe we would like to help, but we don’t, because we’re scared, we’re busy (doing things that don’t necessarily even make us happy), and we think the problems are actually unsolvable.

[SeymourDrake]

If you can't afford to live in this city, move.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

If you can't afford to live in this city, move.

Globalization is a process that gives and takes.

You want cheap goods and technological improvements? Well you have to take increased foreign capital investments. Don't want to do those lowly crappy jobs? Well now you have to bring in migrant workers. You reap what you sow.

On a personal note, I feel that there is a lot of empathy with regards to the DTES homeless. Seriously, working and volunteering down there showed me that a majority of them are just individuals that grew up making horrible decisions and continue to make stupid decisons. In many cases, we are well past any hope for rehabilitation and have to accept that they are goners.

The solutuon involves taking problematic kids and teens and correcting them.

Edit: Guy from a middle class family got a job in the oil patch near Fort Mac in 2006 at the age of 26-27 making approx 85k a year. Quit in 2011 and moved to Vancouver. Broke and homeless by 2013. Gets free forklift certification and money for workboots and is hooked up with a $21/hour job. Refuses to work and opts to be homeless. Gathered up 5 criminal charges in 2014 alone.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The solutuon involves taking problematic kids and teens and correcting them.

It's also important to support some low income families and others so they don't fall down the path to life on the DTES. Probably a lot better for society to prevent these problems rather than deal with them later.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

If you can't afford to live in this city, move.

Was that sarcasm?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It's also important to support some low income families and others so they don't fall down the path to life on the DTES. Probably a lot better for society to prevent these problems rather than deal with them later.

Yes and the more that we show we are a caring, supportive society the less likely people will succumb to or become stuck in addiction. Loneliness, shame, trauma, and abuse are the causes of addiction, not moral shortcomings.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

If you can't afford to live in this city, move.

Well hey if might makes right we’re all going to lose in the end. Modern civilization created relative peace and prosperity because we eschewed those values, in part at least.

[SeymourDrake]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Was that sarcasm?

Yes it just inserts itself into every conversation.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

Lots of opinions but no solutions.

i'm ashamed of some of the comments posted by some of you. We're dealing with human beings who would rather sleep on the street than have a roof over their heads.

None of us know their stories, what their lives have been like. So, judging them based on the fact they have made a choice to live on the street is short sighted.

They need to be evaluated and legally placed into custody for the best possible treatment. Not shipped off to Northern BC so they can be out of sight out of mind.

I'm coming at this one late but here's the problem that makes a lot of us look like we got great ideas and no initiative:

-Political no-go: It is not in the interest of the city or the BC govenment to create more permanent facilities for housing problematic street dwellers. It costs money. Some of us may be more than willing to pay a few percent more annually to fund such projects(my self included for the record), but tax increases are overwhelmingly unpopular, especially if you are trying to stay in power and results can take years to develop. I the opposition doesn't eat you alive your voters will.
If you contact your regional MP or councilperson you are more than likely going to get an automated and photocopied response on the matter.

-Cultural no-go: This is the complicated part. Because there is a percentage that is aboriginal in nature (as well as other debatably minority nationalities) the notion of rounding the homeless, addicted and delinquent up or pulling them out of marginal social support and confining them to a hospital or rehabilitation camp "until they are better" walks the uncanny valley that their parents or even them as younger people had to go through. BC has a pretty ugly past regarding this in the form of internment camps and residential schools. Many social groups will not take a "we'll do it better this time" as a valid excuse and would bury any attempt to relocate and commit in the courts. It's not the 1970's anymore but even with modern treatment and rehabilitation processes you will find a lot of pushback.

It's a stalemate between "I don't want to look bad" and "I don't trust them to not do it again". The collateral damage is too great to justify actual improvement. We as people on a forum can say all we want because it doesn't threaten said stalemate.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by MIPS

If you contact your regional MP or councilperson you are more than likely going to get an automated and photocopied response on the matter.

That's true no matter what you're contacting them about - the likelihood of you hearing from an actual person is really low.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Because there is a percentage that is aboriginal in nature (as well as other debatably minority nationalities) the notion of rounding the homeless, addicted and delinquent up or pulling them out of marginal social support and confining them to a hospital or rehabilitation camp "until they are better" walks the uncanny valley that their parents or even them as younger people had to go through.

I don't see minorities or First Nations being a big part of the argument. Morality of the "away from society" argument notwithstanding, most of the headcases I've witnessed are Caucasian; the others could likely be detoxed or sheltered without much trouble.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I don't see minorities or First Nations being a big part of the argument.

Don't worry, someone will make it a point.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

If you can't afford to live in this city, move.

Private residents of the City have been told that for decades. Priced out? Tough luck - move.

I fail to understand why its then expected that homeless and addicted get to live downtown and OV on the public dime.

[SeymourDrake]

Originally Posted by rofina

Private residents of the City have been told that for decades. Priced out? Tough luck - move.

I fail to understand why its then expected that homeless and addicted get to live downtown and OV on the public dime.

They live all over the city, near their support teams. But downtown being so small their resources are also there but seem compressed. But, i don't think the location matters to the homeless more so than it actually being easier on the system.

I know it's difficult to relate to people that are mentally & physically damaged along with addicts. But maybe donate some of your time to the homeless community and get to know how the community is run and how difficult it is to manage.

Vancouver is really filled with a lot of snobs. It's gotten worse over my 4 decades of living here on and off depending on my assignment.

The City itself is terribly run, but the homeless situation seems to be on a positive upswing. Maybe "better than it was" is better way of putting it.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Vancouver_Highrise

It seems like Vin has a lot of opinions but likely has done nothing to help support or make changes to the DTES. Typical privileged perspective. People like you are the problem.

Thanks for contributing to help end this scourge. We can all attest to the fact that you are a real problem solver. As if.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

It’s the “just get rid of them” point of view. Put them out of sight. But they don’t really disappear.

I empathize with the desire to sweep away the problems of addiction in our society. They are complicated. But I don’t think that much work has actually been done to address them, or not the right kind of work. We overfund police and underfund social programs. At its core we don’t address the underlying family issues, the roots of addiction that began in childhood. We need a societal shift. We need more people working in healing roles and less people working meaningless jobs they hate that just feed into a capitalist, overly-consumptive black hole. The DTES really isn’t that big. The bigger problem is the fact that millions of us drive through there, maybe a part of our heart breaks, maybe we would like to help, but we don’t, because we’re scared, we’re busy (doing things that don’t necessarily even make us happy), and we think the problems are actually unsolvable.

How is a suggestion to make people go for treatment and enforcing the law just a "sweep away the problems"? If anything, these may be the only solutions now as many other expensive ways had already been tried but the problems just keep getting worse. The healing process is important, and like you said, the investments need to be focused on that, and not just patching up the wounds here and there.