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  #181  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 1:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I heard a great interview with Jarrett Walker of Human Transit (great transit blog) on The Disruptor's arguing against overvaluing autonomous vehicles:

https://disruptors.fm/158-elons-wrong-dr...future-of-transportation-jarrett-walker/

His thesis is really simple. The spatial realities of individual transport (40 people on a bus vs. 40 people in AEVs) along with induced demand is likely to negate a lot of the benefits of autonomous vehicles.

It's from 2019. Saw it hadn't been posted. Great listen.
Thanks for the link, I will have to give it a listen. I have been saying this for years, but others seem to think that autonomis vehicles will somehow encourage more carpooling. Even if it does, 10 AEVs with 4 people in each of them will still take up more road space than 40 people on a bus.

AEVs certainly could have uses for destinations not well served by transit or other times when tranist is less that conveneient (like when carring a large or heavy package).
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  #182  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 1:25 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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It's also sort of depressing if you listen to that interview, because you realize how little technophiles, like the interviewer, understand cities, sprawl, etc. Or that they just don't care. Their solution to traffic isn't building better cities. It's living further away and commuting in a personal pod where they can sleep. It's truly dystopian if you think about it.

Makes me depressed thinking of what a horrible mess 2040 Ottawa might be, as BEVs reduce the cost of commuting from further away and automation (even at lower levels) reduces the effort.
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  #183  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 1:47 PM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
SAE looks like it has adjusted its 0-5-level Autonomous Vehicle descriptions:
Thanks for posting the chart. I'm a Tesla owner and have heard of level 5 but didn't know the other levels.

My FSD Tesla is barely a Level 2. We disagree on my placement within the lane and whether I need to brake when coming up on a bicycle riding in its own bike lane on one of the river parkways. Not to mention 100 other quirks which mean I don't use the feature unless I'm on a long drive on a 400 series highway.

Even the TACC is a pain because it slows the car dramatically when driving east bound through the Split. It seems to think that is a ramp to the 174 so slows the car down. It does not behave the same way if I'm continuing EB on the 417 (we finally were able to test that yesterday on a drive to Cornwall.)
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  #184  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 5:16 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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Don't get me started on Navigate on Autopilot!
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  #185  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 5:24 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Thanks for the link, I will have to give it a listen. I have been saying this for years, but others seem to think that autonomis vehicles will somehow encourage more carpooling. Even if it does, 10 AEVs with 4 people in each of them will still take up more road space than 40 people on a bus.

AEVs certainly could have uses for destinations not well served by transit or other times when transit is less that convenient (like when carring a large or heavy package).
I did not listen to the podcast, but while its erroneous to think that Autonomous vehicles are magic solution, they will be "part of a solution". Most people who live outside the core and in freehold homes typically have 2 vehicles. The economics of a RoboTaxi to replace the second vehicle is very compelling, think Uber rates less 50% to 75%. If a family has a second car to commute say 10km to work (not on direct transit line) and the occasional trip to WalMart, the RoboTaxi would prove to be much more cost effective.
No matter how you slice it, a car costs a minimum of $500 all in per month, usually more like $800 for most people.
If you spend $300 a month on RoboTaxis, then you will be ahead. People already crunched these numbers with Uber and even that is very compelling, imagine when it's a fraction of that cost
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  #186  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 5:37 PM
zzptichka zzptichka is offline
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Autonomous vehicles will only increase congestion.
I can totally see someone driving downtown to work and sending their car back home so they don't have to pay for parking, thus doubling their congestion footprint.
Same thing with Robotaxi. While a single commuter car drives around 1 person, Robotaxi, as any cab will be driving something like 0.7 person.
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  #187  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 5:47 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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When it costs 10-20¢/km to operate, why would you ever pay for parking? It's cheaper to send the car 25km away and have it pick you up later. Downtowns will then become traffic infested hell unless cars are severely limited or banned entirely.

The bigger issue is probably how AEVs might facilitate and accelerate the suburban/ex-urban growth ponzi scheme:

Video Link


We already see some of this in Ottawa with how expensive infrastructure is in the suburbs. Just imagine the consequences of Renfrew becoming the new Stittsville.
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  #188  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 6:13 PM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
Autonomous vehicles will only increase congestion.
That is only true if mixed in with non-autonomous cars. AVs communicate with each other and don't need to leave space between vehicles, so, in theory, move more efficiently, reducing congestion. Unlike the idiot in the 80 construction zone who insists on doing 110 and then causes an accident, AVs will move at the maximum speed for the conditions, optimizing the driving for all AVs on the road.
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  #189  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 6:44 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
That is only true if mixed in with non-autonomous cars. AVs communicate with each other and don't need to leave space between vehicles, so, in theory, move more efficiently, reducing congestion. Unlike the idiot in the 80 construction zone who insists on doing 110 and then causes an accident, AVs will move at the maximum speed for the conditions, optimizing the driving for all AVs on the road.
No amount of communication is going to make up for the fact that one person now needs a vehicle with a footprint of 20 sqft as opposed to 4 sqft on a bus or train.
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  #190  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
No amount of communication is going to make up for the fact that one person now needs a vehicle with a footprint of 20 sqft as opposed to 4 sqft on a bus or train.
I'm bullish on AVs as a solution to the last mile problem, but this only works if private vehicle ownership is effectively abolished on public roads. Ideally AVs would be operated or subcontracted by a transit agency.

The system would make use of rail/BRT for trunks, plus local busses for connecting major arteries. AVs would fill in the final mile between arteries/major stations and destinations. The distance of trips would be limited, and each car would stay in its own geographical area.

It's true that people on busses take up less room, but it's difficult to imagine people accepting that they need to give up the convenience of their car for a long multi-transfer route for many of the trips they need to take.
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  #191  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2021, 11:41 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by silvergate View Post
It's true that people on busses take up less room, but it's difficult to imagine people accepting that they need to give up the convenience of their car for a long multi-transfer route for many of the trips they need to take.
A big part of why AVs are probably more likely to lead a traffic congested hell when they first come out.
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  #192  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 12:49 AM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
No amount of communication is going to make up for the fact that one person now needs a vehicle with a footprint of 20 sqft as opposed to 4 sqft on a bus or train.
Well the buses going by my place are a helluva lot larger than an EV and contain 2 people (driver and passenger) on a good day when they pass me on my walk.

The bus that passes me is going between transitway station and the LRT so isn't really 'last mile' by any definition. But it has seldom had anyone on it for at least that leg of the trip for the past 15 months.
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  #193  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
Well the buses going by my place are a helluva lot larger than an EV and contain 2 people (driver and passenger) on a good day when they pass me on my walk.

The bus that passes me is going between transitway station and the LRT so isn't really 'last mile' by any definition. But it has seldom had anyone on it for at least that leg of the trip for the past 15 months.
You do realize that we are the middle of a pandemic and the number of people commuting by any mode of transportation has been drastically reduced. What were those buses like before COVID?
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  #194  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 1:40 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
Well the buses going by my place are a helluva lot larger than an EV and contain 2 people (driver and passenger) on a good day when they pass me on my walk.

The bus that passes me is going between transitway station and the LRT so isn't really 'last mile' by any definition. But it has seldom had anyone on it for at least that leg of the trip for the past 15 months.
Cause we should design our entire transport system and society around off-peak usage during a historical pandemic?

The problem isn't the empty bus passing your house midday. Who cares if it takes up space? There's no shortage of roadspace midday. Now what happens at rush hour if everybody is put in to their own car? Were you in Ottawa for the 2008 transit strike? Remember how that went?
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  #195  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 2:15 AM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Now what happens at rush hour if everybody is put in to their own car? Were you in Ottawa for the 2008 transit strike? Remember how that went?
You don't think that's why there is such heavy traffic right now? Slowdowns daily on the 417 and not just at peak hour. Interestingly, during the Stay-At-Home order my regular commute was with more traffic when I had to do it midday than peak morning hour. And the commute, which got down to 20 minutes during the strictest of the restrictions, is back up to its pre-pandemic 28 - 30 minutes. And the federal government hasn't gone back to their offices yet.

As for the 2008 strike, I was a resident of rural Ottawa then and had only one experience trying to leave downtown during rush hour. Yes, it was hell.

I expect this year will be hell once the feds go back. In the case of SARS it took an additional 6 months for ridership to recover in Taipei and Hong Kong, cities without the car culture Autowa has.

https://citymonitor.ai/transport/transit-ridership-didnt-snap-back-after-the-2003-sars-outbreaks
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  #196  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 2:41 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
You don't think that's why there is such heavy traffic right now?
That is indeed what happens now. The point that roger1818 and me are trying to make is that using an example of a lightly occupied bus running off-peak is not a useful argument for autonomous vehicles. Roadspace rationing happens at peak (you'll note I don't give a time, there can be several peaks in a day). So at peak, you can either put 40 people in a bus. Or 40 people in a car. The former takes less space. The latter more. Automating the 40 card will sightly improve speed and efficiency. But isn't going to change the basic spatial reality of the bus taking up less room than its passengers all driving cars. Ergo, congestion doesn't get solved with AVs. Indeed, induced demand might bring worse traffic and more new peaks.


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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
As for the 2008 strike, I was a resident of rural Ottawa then and had only one experience trying to leave downtown during rush hour. Yes, it was hell.
Now you've what happens when everybody drives. Imagine this being the permanent state of affairs in a future where every person decides that AVs are cheaper and easier to use than transit. And this is the concern of a whole lot of planners, urbanists and transit advocates.

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I expect this year will be hell once the feds go back. In the case of SARS it took an additional 6 months for ridership to recover in Taipei and Hong Kong, cities without the car culture Autowa has.
We aren't discussing the short term. AVs aren't 6 months away.
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  #197  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 5:47 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
You don't think that's why there is such heavy traffic right now? Slowdowns daily on the 417 and not just at peak hour. Interestingly, during the Stay-At-Home order my regular commute was with more traffic when I had to do it midday than peak morning hour. And the commute, which got down to 20 minutes during the strictest of the restrictions, is back up to its pre-pandemic 28 - 30 minutes. And the federal government hasn't gone back to their offices yet.

As for the 2008 strike, I was a resident of rural Ottawa then and had only one experience trying to leave downtown during rush hour. Yes, it was hell.

I expect this year will be hell once the feds go back. In the case of SARS it took an additional 6 months for ridership to recover in Taipei and Hong Kong, cities without the car culture Autowa has.

https://citymonitor.ai/transport/transit-ridership-didnt-snap-back-after-the-2003-sars-outbreaks
Yes there are a lot of people still to go back to the office but I'm not sure traffic will be worse. Most of those Feds don't drive. A lot of them are driving around the city during the day right now anyway. Finally some people are still driving who normally take the bus. Hopefully once they get second vaccine or when pandemic is "over" they will go back to transit. A habit is tough to break though.
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  #198  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 12:29 PM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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This article points to a study showing a small number of AVs can be iused to improved mixed AV/human traffic by significant numbers. Not now, we all know that current AV tech is too cautious. But in the future. And, of course, this assumes no hacks, which would have the opposite effect.

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/article...-congestion-among-human-driven-vehicles/

Obviously putting people on mass transit (preferable autonomous) is the best choice. But that's not where I see things going in the near future (under 5 years.)

Ottawa's system and design currently has too many people living too far out for mass transit to be useful unless we put much more money into it and make it more reliable (which may not be possible no matter how much money is poured at the problems the LRT currently has.) I've been on commuter trains in Switzerland and Denmark where commuting from the equivalent of Embrun or Arnprior are comfortable, frequent, affordable and reliable.

But there is a history in most of Europe with commuting that we don't have in North America. They achieve a lot of that by making car ownership so expensive, biking and transit become the only affordable option. We would not stand for a tax of 150% of a car's value (in Denmark is ranges from 25% for a car under $12K to 150% on a car over $40K.)

Yet they have that as well as amazing, seamless, transit options.

I'm willing to bet those bus users with the worst commutes will be the last to come back to the office full-time if they come back at all.

We already know the true 'cost' of Transit is time (literal and inconveniently have to rework one's life to meet up with a bus 'schedule' - OC doesn't deserve that word to be used without quotes.)

For me in Westboro, if I commuted, my time cost would be roughly 1 hour per week. My limiting factor is I'd have to time my day to the bus schedule. So transit is a no brainer and that's why we are a single car household with an EV. We AV, we'd not own a car at all but just use robo-taxis all the time.

On the other hand, coming in from where I used to live would adds a minimum of 90 minutes per day, even if I ignored the specialty bus that used to come 3x in each direction only during peak hour, and drove to a park and ride parking lot. In that case, we are looking at 7.5 hours a week as the cost, plus the bus pass. That values ones time at well under $20 per hour if we take $500/month as the cost of owning a commuter vehicle.

That assumes the LRT system is working well. I can assure you that it isn't, I get the notifications at least weekly that the system is down. Now it doesn't really matter, there are so few riders, but the pandemic time has not been used to solve the issues caused by extreme cold and heat.

The commute drive isn't an insignificant time cost as well but an AV makes the time more useful as one could read or relax even more easily than one does on Transit.

Parking hassles more than just cost is a significant reason people don't commute with a car. AVs fix that problem. And they mean a family can have a single car since the AV isn't parked all day at the office, kids can use it after school to get to work or activities. Ride sharing is 'safer' because you aren't worried about the quality of the driver with your kids (My son once told me how much fun it was to take the S-curve near our home in the carpooler's Mercedes - and that was the dad driving, not some teen.)

In our car culture, I see AVs as becoming the preferred option for commuters, not transit.

Of course, we are talking years away, given my experience with Elon's descriptions and what my Tesla can actually do, we are a very long way away from Level 5.
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  #199  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2021, 12:39 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
This article points to a study showing a small number of AVs can be iused to improved mixed AV/human traffic by significant numbers. Not now, we all know that current AV tech is too cautious. But in the future. And, of course, this assumes no hacks, which would have the opposite effect.

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/article...-congestion-among-human-driven-vehicles/
The concern isn't 5% adoption as described in the article. The concern is what happens when say 50% of people replace their cars with owned or subscription AVs. That has profound implications for cities.

I urge you to listen to the interview with Jarrett Walker that I posted. A lot of the points you're making were addressed.
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  #200  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2021, 6:12 PM
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Kanata North Business Association’s Plans for Autonomous Vehicle Transit

BY JENNA SUDDS POSTED ON JULY 5, 2021

Today, the City of Ottawa’s Transportation Committee received a presentation from the Kanata North Business Association outlining a plan to use autonomous vehicles to connect Kanata North to the city’s existing and planned rapid transit networks. This is wonderful news for the Kanata North Technology Park – Canada’s largest tech park and a critical driver of economic growth and employment in our city.

The results of a feasibility study show that the opportunity exists to use autonomous vehicles to help commuters get from existing and future transit stations to the Kanata North Technology Park and nearby federal facilities. The study suggests using an on-demand autonomous shuttle service that would run between Moodie Station and the Kanata North Technology Park via Carling Avenue. An autonomous electric bus would connect the area to the future Stage 3 O-Train extension via the planned March Road bus rapid transit corridor.

The Kanata North Business Association proposes to partner with Invest Ottawa to start a one-year pilot of the shuttle service from Moodie Station to the new National Defence Headquarters or possibly in the Technology Park.

I’m extremely excited about this project as it will further support the growth of the local tech park and will share updates and next steps with our community as they become available.
https://kanatanorth.ca/2021/07/05/kanata...ns-plans-for-autonomous-vehicle-transit/
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