Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[ElieB]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

The problem with all of the above examples is that they take the bridge out of service as a rail bridge.

How is that the problem with those examples? At least with the most famous NY and Paris examples, the bridges had been removed from service long before they were transformed... So really they just made something out of nothing. Not unlike the POW...

And yeah, it would make a great link for QC-OTT transit, that's probably the best use for it but how long will that take?? The cost isn't that crazy. 40-60M$ is peanuts for such a long river bridge connection, considering the amount spent on tunneling through downtown for phase 1.

So yeah, I suppose it's one or the other and weighing the opportunity cost to etiher... Unfortunate. But it would be worth expanding on the bridge to make it both a transit and ped/cycle connection ideally. Like the Alexandria bridge in the 50s, without the car lane

[OTSkyline]

The difference is the cities like NYC and Paris are very large urban centres and are/were in need of some more park space. Ottawa is filled with park space and grass fields everywhere, a place for pedestrians to walk in a park is not what we are missing here. A good transit connection between both Ottawa and Gatineau though, is exactly what we need.

I agree, I'd like to see the bridge repaired for the train and either the Otrain extended or a new train going from Bayview to Terrace de la Chaudiere.

And as someone has mentioned, I would add a "spur" of the rapibus line that goes southeast from the Montcalm station to Terraces de la Chaudiere following Montcalm St.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

True enough. It would also cost a lot to get the bridge set up for truck traffic too.

True, but presumably a lot less than the $2 billion the current tunnel plan is estimated cost. If you are wondering why they didn't look at this option, it was well outside of the geographic region for the tunnel.

Not only will it likely be much cheaper, it will likely be much more useful as I strongly suspect the vast majority of the trucks traveling through Ottawa are coming from either the south (via the 416) or the west (via the 416, 7 or 17) since most of the trucks coming from the east can use Hwy 50. This route would also reduce truck traffic on the downtown 417 as it would get them off the highway west of downtown (I freely admit these are all educated guesses on my part. I have no proof).

Darwin's suggestion was to spend the minimal amount needed to get the bridge safe in its current configuration (single track).

Did Darwin commission an engineering study to say that the bridge is safe without any repairs?

In Darwin's post, he suggested the Gatineau terminus be at Terrasses de la Chaudière. The tracks would need repair, but the ROW is already there. The "decrepit heritage building" could actually be used as the terminal.

Possible, but looking at it in street view, it doesn't appear to have any doors on either Alexandre-Taché blvd or Eddy st, making it less feasible a location, especially if it is a heritage building. The end of the building closest to Eddy st. also looks like it is covered with some type of wire mesh, so it is likely structurally unstable and in need of major repair.

In addition, I don't think it would be too much of an effort for Gatineau to extend the Rapibus line across Taché and add an extra station at the 'split' in the rail line. They would just need to construct a bus loop near the end of the UQO football field. Probably doable.

And then what? Have the buses turn around and go back to Taché to service those going to downtown Hull? Or should everyone transfer to the O-train for 1 stop (and then possibly transfer to another bus or train again)?

I like the idea of the O-train crossing the river, I just don't see how this routing would make things any better than the current buses for either Ottawa residents traveling to Gatineau or Gatineau residents traveling to Ottawa.

OC Transpo of course doesn't want the latter as they don't want to pay to transport all of STO's customers traveling into Ottawa that last mile. Currently each transit system transports their own customers into both cores and the reciprocal agreement is only for those wanting to travel outside of the core. If it is built by Ottawa, it will be optimized for Ottawa residents.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by ElieB

And yeah, it would make a great link for QC-OTT transit, that's probably the best use for it but how long will that take?? The cost isn't that crazy. 40-60M$ is peanuts for such a long river bridge connection, considering the amount spent on tunneling through downtown for phase 1.

It would take maybe 18 months once the political will was there.

Maybe even less if you bring in some rail people from Japan or Yurp who actually know what they are doing.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I like the idea of the O-train crossing the river, I just don't see how this routing would make things any better than the current buses for either Ottawa residents traveling to Gatineau or Gatineau residents traveling to Ottawa.

* Smoother ride. (Dear lord, where does Transpo train its lead-footed bus drivers?)

* Not susceptible to traffic delays on the congested vehicular bridges.

* Not susceptible to weather catastrophe (i.e., ermagerd snew) that messes up regular bus and bus crappid transit in the winter.

* Terrific ride experience - ever taken in the views on the Vancouver SkyTrain? The interprovincial O-Train would provide killer views.

* Train-to-train transfers for many more origin/destination pairs, obviating the anti-bus bias in the marketplace.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The biggest issue I have with using the PoW bridge, is it is too far west for optimal transit use.

Don't let the optimal be the enemy of the good.

With a new vehicle bridge in place, they could put the LRT on the Chaudière Bridge instead.

This is Ottawa where they just removed a bunch of bus stops on Beechwood to maximize room for cars - sorry, for "cyclists" - you will not get traffic lanes removed from any existing interprovincial road bridge, ever.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

The problem with all of the above examples is that they take the bridge out of service as a rail bridge.

None of them were in service any longer as rail bridges, were they?

[rocketphish]

Mayor Watson sick of lawsuits, calls for safety on Prince of Wales Bridge

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: August 19, 2016 | Last Updated: August 19, 2016 10:04 AM EDT

Sick of the city being hauled to court, Mayor Jim Watson says the city can’t risk letting people hang out on a decrepit rail bridge above the Ottawa River.

“I’m getting tired of the city being sued. We spend a lot of money on lawsuits. People love to sue governments,” Watson said, adding that there have been “hazings” and people chasing others across the Prince of Wales Bridge.

“It’s not safe to be on an unused, rickety old train bridge.”

The city is considering installing security gates at each end of the historic bridge, which spans the river just north of Bayview transit station. People aren’t allowed on the bridge deck, but they go anyway.

A multi-use path on the bridge would cost $10.5 million, but the National Capital Commission and the City of Gatineau aren’t interested in helping the City of Ottawa pay for it. As a result, the City of Ottawa has turned its focus to building a bridge over the Rideau Canal near Lansdowne Park.

The Prince of Wales Bridge, which is owned by the City of Ottawa, will one day be an interprovincial rail link to Gatineau’s rapid transit system. Until that time, the bridge is off limits.

A statement from Transport Canada says the city is responsible for complying with the federal Railway Safety Act. It’s up to the city to determine how it can prevent unauthorized access to the Prince of Wales Bridge and Transport Canada will take enforcement action as required, the agency says.

City manager Steve Kanellakos told council the city must comply with Transport Canada’s directions, otherwise it would open itself to liability. The city continues to investigate safety barriers, warning notices, monitoring and policing practices at the bridge, Kanellakos says.

If the city doesn’t do something, Transport Canada can step in and order a more expensive solution, the city manager warns.

Watson fears a tragedy happening on the bridge. The city has removed swinging ropes and diving boards, he said.

“I’ll can tell you, the first time someone jumps off that bridge swimming and breaks their neck, everyone will be saying, ‘Why didn’t you shut access to the bridge?’ This is a public safety issue,” Watson said.

“It’s really quite nonsensical when people say, ‘Oh, it’s such a beautiful site for a sunset.’ There are five bridges you can walk on safely and capture the sunset. There’s Nepean Point, there’s Deschenes Rapids, there’s parkland all along. You don’t need to go on an unsafe bridge.”

It makes more sense to do minimal maintenance on the bridge and wait until the city is ready to use it for a rail link to Gatineau, Watson said.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...f-wales-bridge

[Aylmer]

Hm... Has the city ever actually been sued over that bridge?

EDIT: As far as I've been able to uncover, the city has never been sued regarding the bridge. This kind of "don't-let-people-have-fun-they-might-sue-us" attitude is precisely why I think Ottawa has outgrown Jim Watson. Ottawa now needs more than a steady hand: it needs imagination and courage, neither of which seem to flow through Watson.

[eltodesukane]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

.. Ottawa is filled with park space and grass fields everywhere, ..

And yet Ottawa has nothing like Montreal's Parc Mont Royal, Ile Sainte Helene, Ile Notre Dame, Parc Maisonneuve, Parc Lafontaine, and nothing like New York's Central Park.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Horus

Darwin's suggestion was to spend the minimal amount needed to get the bridge safe in its current configuration (single track).

Originally Posted by roger1818

Did Darwin commission an engineering study to say that the bridge is safe without any repairs?

I don't think he did, nor did he, or I, say that that the bridge was not in need of repair. I'm no engineer, but it seems logical that it will cost much, much less to refurbish the bridge in its current configuration as a single rail track than to expand/refurbish/replace/rebuild as a two lane roadway capable of carrying truck traffic.

Originally Posted by Horus

In addition, I don't think it would be too much of an effort for Gatineau to extend the Rapibus line across Taché and add an extra station at the 'split' in the rail line. They would just need to construct a bus loop near the end of the UQO football field. Probably doable.

Originally Posted by roger1818

And then what? Have the buses turn around and go back to Taché to service those going to downtown Hull? Or should everyone transfer to the O-train for 1 stop (and then possibly transfer to another bus or train again)?

Not at all. But, diverting Ottawa-bound traffic to the O-Train would enable STO to take their Rapidbus routes 200, 300 and 400 off the bridges and out of downtown Ottawa. 100 route service serving the downtown Hull loop could remain, and perhaps be upgraded for improvements to frequency. The UQO O-train/STO transfer point could be a terminus for a new Rapibus-corridor-only route, thereby making Rapibus the "subway-style" route it was intended to be. Similarly, the 100 already serves Chaudière, so there is a connection there to downtown Hull.

It's far from perfect, but it could result in both OC Transpo and STO running fewer buses over the bridges, Based on the number of complaints I've seen in this forum about STO buses clogging downtown, I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that suggestions to reduce the number of STO routes entering Ottawa would be welcomed.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I like the idea of the O-train crossing the river, I just don't see how this routing would make things any better than the current buses for either Ottawa residents traveling to Gatineau or Gatineau residents traveling to Ottawa.

OC Transpo of course doesn't want the latter as they don't want to pay to transport all of STO's customers traveling into Ottawa that last mile. Currently each transit system transports their own customers into both cores and the reciprocal agreement is only for those wanting to travel outside of the core. If it is built by Ottawa, it will be optimized for Ottawa residents.

It may not be better, or at least significantly better/worse than the status quo from a traveler's perspective, however, if the reduction in the number of buses from both systems traveling between and within the Ottawa and Hull cores results in better service/less congestion, it may be attractive.

Essentially, this reduces Rideau Centre's role as a hub for STO/OCTranspo connections and shifts it to Bayview. Maybe that's good, maybe not.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not only will it likely be much cheaper, it will likely be much more useful as I strongly suspect the vast majority of the trucks traveling through Ottawa are coming from either the south (via the 416) or the west (via the 416, 7 or 17) since most of the trucks coming from the east can use Hwy 50. This route would also reduce truck traffic on the downtown 417 as it would get them off the highway west of downtown (I freely admit these are all educated guesses on my part. I have no proof).

That all seems reasonable to me as likely sources of truck traffic. I don't dispute the potential usefulness of the POW as an alternate to the current truck route situation. However, I'm having difficulty visualizing what the Ottawa-side approach to the truck bridge would be, short of decking over the Trillium line. Granted, for up to $2B in comparable costs, there's probably a lot that could be done.

Ultimately, I guess I'm saying that I believe the best use for the POW bridge is for transit, preferably rail

[acottawa]

Mayor seems super cranky these days. Maybe he should cut back on the ribbon cutting schedule.

I wonder if building a steel barricade would cut down on lawsuits anyway. People are probably more likely to get hurt and sue

I can't see much advantage in extending the o-train. Other than the casino there isn't really anything on the line and most designations would require getting on an STO bus anyway.

[rocketphish]

$250,000 gates for Prince of Wales Bridge the target of new petition

By Melissa Murray, Ottawa West News
Aug 19, 2016

More than 1,000 people have signed a petition to save access to the Prince of Wales Bridge, after a $250,000 cost to erect gates was announced.

Aileen Duncan, who started the petition, said she was disappointed to hear the city was considering closing access to the bridge with the costly gates.

“Everyone kind of realizes this place has a symbolic and historic value,” Duncan said in an interview.

Duncan plans to send the petition to the city, the city of Gatineau and the National Capital Commission.

She’d like to see the money used instead to make the bridge safe for pedestrians and cyclists, putting up a guardrail, adding lights and an emergency phone and replacing broken or missing rail ties, for example. That way it could stay open until such time as the bridge – which crosses from Ottawa to Gatineau – can be transformed into a formal pedestrian and cycling route, something the city says would cost about $10.5 million. The cost to convert the bridge for rail transit is between $20 million and $40 million.

“Everyone I’ve talked to is a little disappointed,” she said. “It’s a bit of a rogue space right now and an example of urban decay in the capital,” she said, adding the idea of closing access seemingly came out of nowhere.

“It’s not a good use of money and not in line with the way the city has consulted with the public on the bridge.”

She is hopeful another option can be found by the city and would love for the bridge to remain as is, but with Transport Canada advising the city to take safety measures, she knows that those who continue to trespass on the bridge can’t keep operating in a “grey zone.”

According to a city memo, Transport Canada is working with the city to review the installation of safety barriers, signage and policing practices for the bridge.

The city owns the bridge and as a result has to ensure public safety. The options staff is looking into “will address the city’s public safety and liability obligations in a cost effective manner…”

The memo states that if the city doesn’t act, more costly measures could be imposed by Transport Canada. Currently, people using the bridge do so at their own risk.

Coun. Keith Egli, who chairs the transportation committee, said Transport Canada contacted the city months ago saying they weren’t satisfied with the safety of the bridge as is. That prompted staff to investigate some alternatives, including the gates.

Egli said “$250,000 seems to be a lot of money on gates, but this is somewhat out of our hands,” adding he’d like to see any and all options that would help the city meets its safety obligations.

“We don’t want to be spending needlessly and need to know if this is the Cadillac version or if there’s something else we could be doing.”

On Twitter, Coun. Jeff Leiper, who is the representative of the area, said the gates would be a $250,000 “giant barrier” and that he and Coun. Catherine McKenney have pointed out the money could be better spent elsewhere.

Egli said the city doesn’t currently have the money to convert the bridge into a pedestrian and cycling route. The city sought partner funds for the truss bridge this year, but when that didn’t work out, the money set aside went to fund the Clegg Street cycling and pedestrian overpass.

Of the gates, Egli said that’s what the city can afford to do at this time, but maintained the bridge is protected under the city’s transportation master plan as a transit facility. He said a future partnership could still be explored, and if provincial or federal funds became available the city could look at other alternatives.

He added safety issues need to be “resolved sooner rather than later.”

The petition can be found at http://www.change.org/p/city-of-otta...es-bridge-open.

Melissa Murray is a reporter with the Ottawa West News. She can be reached at [email protected]

http://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/n...-new-petition/

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.
A couple of thoughts here...
First - remember that photo-op Jim has always actively moved against all the rail proposals in O-C, and to oppose any use of the PoW bridge is right up his alley.
Then - remember that while Ottawa owns the bridge, I do not know how much furthur up we own, and if it is too limited, we will need some kind of co-operation and buy-in from Gatineau. Simplest is indeed to just extend to a transfer station at the south side of Tache, and offer to build the platforms if Gatineau will extend the Rapibus across to it. (I know - our cost, but Gatineau has to be convinced that we really want to do this.)
The option of going up to Les Terraces would indeed be VERY nice, and using a (Heritage?) building as the station is attractive and innovative (none of which Jim is known for). BUT - if Windmill could be brought on board for it ? There is potential there.
As for getting STO buses off downtown Ottawa, and OC off Gatineau ... well, there has to be a lot of horse trading there, which Ott and Gat alone might be capable of, but when you then involve everybody else on up, the mind boggles. Darwin's simple suggestion is far more straightforward, especially when put up a a PILOT. Keep that word front and center. Like the original O-Train, it's the only way any of this will gain any traction. It keeps things simple, cheap, separate, distinct, unique, controllable, ...etc.
That study of the cost to refurbish the PoW is not from Darwin, but from Transport Canada and Capital Rail (for City of Ottawa) and is in the City's files. Somewhere. I recall it, and it was a far more realistic and professional evaluation of the state of neglect that the bridge has suffered than the first study estimation 2-5 mil. (and Jim has the gall to spout about demolition-by-neglect property owners in Ottawa !).
As for Rapibuses teminating at Tache - they don't. As is now, they would continue on their routes, at least until the impact of a new service can be properly evaluated.
With no professional knowledge, I think that this Pilot could be put in place for costs comparable to the O-Train Pilot - call it 100 mil, inc. the Pow refurb. Worth it, IMHO.
Thanks, all.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Mayor Watson sick of lawsuits, calls for safety on Prince of Wales Bridge

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: August 19, 2016 | Last Updated: August 19, 2016 10:04 AM EDT

Sick of the city being hauled to court, Mayor Jim Watson says the city can’t risk letting people hang out on a decrepit rail bridge above the Ottawa River.

“I’m getting tired of the city being sued. We spend a lot of money on lawsuits. People love to sue governments,” Watson said, adding that there have been “hazings” and people chasing others across the Prince of Wales Bridge.

Does this mean the City of Ottawa will immediately cease suing anyone, for any reason, ever? Cause, you know, it's just as costly as getting sued.

No?

Alrighty, then, Mayor Dithers - as you were.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Hm... Has the city ever actually been sued over that bridge?

EDIT: As far as I've been able to uncover, the city has never been sued regarding the bridge. This kind of "don't-let-people-have-fun-they-might-sue-us" attitude is precisely why I think Ottawa has outgrown Jim Watson. Ottawa now needs more than a steady hand: it needs imagination and courage, neither of which seem to flow through Watson.

Watson is the human epitome of small-town, suburban-thinking Ottawa.

If he doesn't bail, he needs to go.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

And yet Ottawa has nothing like Montreal's Parc Mont Royal, Ile Sainte Helene, Ile Notre Dame, Parc Maisonneuve, Parc Lafontaine, and nothing like New York's Central Park.

Mostly because almost every kind of human animation in Ottawa parks, especially those owned by the NCC, is verboten.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I can't see much advantage in extending the o-train. Other than the casino there isn't really anything on the line and most designations would require getting on an STO bus anyway.

A lot of people, ca. 1999, couldn't see much advantage in the proposed O-Train.

I can see LOTS of advantage in extending the O-train, at least as far as the government offices, and at least as a temporary measure until some time 500 or 600 years from now when Gatineau finally decides it wants a real transit system.

Maybe by then, the rest of Ottawa that's not outside the greenbelt can have one, too.

[kwoldtimer]

If they are not going to use the bridge, I'd have to wonder why they don't start planning to tear it down (no big loss, imho)?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Mostly because almost every kind of human animation in Ottawa parks, especially those owned by the NCC, is verboten.

Not wanting to start a "my urban park is better than your urban park" exchange, but Major Hill and Strathcona are both credible examples of the type - central, well-used and "animated", imho.