London Roads

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

As for the London roads,(better stay on topic, or Haljackey will freak! ) while I would like to see more growth, I'm happy that we don't have 6 lane arteries, wide freeways and unparraleled sprawl like in the G.T.A. That's what turns me off about Toronto, because as dense, and urban is it's downtown areas are, the vast majority of the areas, even within the city itself, are suburban. And of course once you get past those your into the first round of suburban cities (Mississauge, Brampton) and then your into the newest boomburbs like Milton, or Barrie. It's really quite maddening!

lol! With so many threads in this local section, staying on-topic should be fairly easy but we all get carried away.

About 6 lane roads... the only one I could see is Wellington between Base Line and the 401. Many sections of it already have 3 lanes (6 lanes between Base line and Commissioners, 3 southbound lanes from Southdale to Bradley, 3 southbound lanes from Exeter to Wilton Grove) so making it a complete 6 lane facility shouldn't be too much trouble.
-The only other 6 lane artery I see for the short-to-mid term is some sections of Oxford street.

Unlike cities like K-W which channel traffic through just a few corridors (like King Street in Kitchener), London has more of a grid pattern which means there are more ways to get from A to B. That's one of the main reasons why we don't have a lot of wide roads.

I really don't like to call Toronto/GTA a mess of sprawl and freeways because the region is actually 2.5x denser than other cities in North America with a comparable size. In addition, Toronto's freeway network is actually quite minimalist, but I like their strategy of having a few mega-freeways to handle capacity rather than criss-cross the city with many smaller ones. If Toronto and the MTO focused on upgrading the major interchanges they would get a lot more capacity out of these routes than widening them further.

I still think London could have feared better with a freeway in the east end. It would help reduce the amount of freight trucks using the surface streets (like Highbury) and make our industrial areas more economically attractive by having a direct connection to the 401. The VMP might be the answer for this if it is actually upgraded to a freeway but I think it's too late and too far away from the industrial complexes. A freeway would also help residents in booming north London get off city streets by using it to channel cars to the 401. Roads like Richmond, Highbury and Wellington would see a noticable reduction in traffic if we built a freeway.

[Simpseatles]

^Good points.

What I meant about the GTA sprawl is that, as relatively dense as it is, it takes up vast ammounts of area overnight. I know that they are trying to curb it with the Greenbelt, and I think the planning is inventive (although if I wanted to live in the burbs, I'd want more of a London style home). However answer me this, if Toronto had an adequate Highway system, than why would it have the longest average commute time in North America? But then again perhaps that's the fault of their so called "best transit system in NA" but that's another story.

Speaking of the Freeway idea, What would your idea have been for an eastern expressway? If VMP ever gets partially upgraded, and extened north I think it will do the job fine.

Also, what about the western end expressway link. Do you believe there's any need for it? If so, where do you think it should be built?

Sorry for so many questions, you've probably had enough with exams, eh?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

Speaking of the Freeway idea, What would your idea have been for an eastern expressway? If VMP ever gets partially upgraded, and extened north I think it will do the job fine.

Also, what about the western end expressway link. Do you believe there's any need for it? If so, where do you think it should be built?

Sorry for so many questions, you've probably had enough with exams, eh?

Actually I plowed through 4 exams in 2 days, thanks to the 3 snow days we had this week. Just one left next week along with all those major projects... I check Skyscrapercity during breaks as it allows my mind to relax and think about more practical things.


As stated above, I think the VMP is too far away to be the "best" freeway for London's east side. Highbury would have probably been a disaster if the expressway portion continued so I'm fine with where it ends. The best location in my opinion was near Old Victoria Road. Back in the 50's and 60's an alignment could have been built to either replace what is now Clarke Road or parallel it. Honestly just about everyone had their own thoughts on where such a route could have been built.. a pity none of them were ever realized to their full potential.

Currently Highbury Avenue is a grade-seperated expressway from Commissioners to Bradley and an at-grade expressway from Hamilton to Commissioners and Bradley to Highway 401. The VMP is an at-grade expressway for it's entire length.

The VMP is planned to wrap around the Fanshawe Conservation Area and meet with Clarke Road. The best thing the City can do now is upgrade Clarke Road to expressway standards from Sunningdale to the VMP's terminus and rename it the VMP. Of course replacing the intersections with interchanges will make it a freeway.

I doubt a east-west freeway will ever happen because London has nearly used up all it's available land within it's northern city limits. The Municipality of Middlesex Centre (north of London) has rejected any freeway plans and thus the province would have to step in.
-But if the city acted quickly enough they could have bought the right of way just north of the Sunningdale country club. That strip of land just scrapes the edges of the boundary and runs south of Arva.

For a western freeway, one is proposed near Westel Bourne road. Problem here is again land is being consumed, especially in Byron and the Commissioners-Oxford junction. Planning such a route would be difficult and I don't think there's enough demand for such a route right now. Best thing the city can do now is buy the right of way and think about how it should junction with the 402 and possibly the 401.

So there you go. Hopefully I answered your questions. Now its back to finishing assignments lol.

[Simpseatles]

^Interesting. You definately know what your talking about when it comes to road planning, as apposed to the clueless people who work for the city!

[Pimpmasterdac]

City looks like it wants to totally realign the Wharncliffe, Wonderland, Exeter Triangle of doom.



Looks like it will be an awesome plan if it comes to fruition. I donno how well it will play in the sticks like Lambeth though, getting cut off from Wharncliffe bypasing them might hurt business.

But overall looks like a good plan!

[haljackey]

Interesting.

I've also seen plans to convert the triangle into a large rotary/roundabout/traffic circle.

Buildings like TSC hardware and the Husky gas station would end up being in the "circle".

Either way I hope they do something about it while the land around it is mostly undeveloped. Traveling on Wonderland southbound and waiting for traffic to turn left to Warncliffe Northbound happens a lot, and doesn't make a lot of sense to me... unless people are traveling extremely short distances.

Perhaps when Bradley gets built traffic patterns will change.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Roundabouts sounds like a good solution, a bit foreign in London but better than the long ass traffic signals.

My only concern having a large roundabout @ the triangle is that a lot of the drivers in that area are seniors who already drive quite poorly and slowly. Putting that in would confuse and disorient them and others as well as slow things down.

The Hale Trafalgar roundabout should have opened by now, barring it being under a metre of snow still!

But then again our city seems to move at a snails pace when it comes to road development. Instead we have to fund "essentials" money losers like pioneer village, Orchestra London, and downtown revitalization which included idiotic street parking on Richmond.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

But then again our city seems to move at a snails pace when it comes to road development. Instead we have to fund "essentials" money losers like pioneer village, Orchestra London, and downtown revitalization which included idiotic street parking on Richmond.

If Richmond had a 4 lane street running parallel to it (like Wellington if it didn't end) then I'd be for the on-street parking on one of these roads. The main north-south artery in central London shouldn't be blocked at any time in my opinion.

As for old people vs roundabouts, as long as they drive the right way on the one-way road, I think they'll do fine. Since turns are not sharp on the roundabout, they could simply circle the roundabout again if they miss their turn.

I expect the Hale/Trafalgar roundabout overpass to at least partially open by the end of the year. With such a unique project, and such awful weather, delays are to be expected.


Speaking of overpasses, the Quebec Street overpass is a mess. Luckily at least one lane is open on either side and since the road is pretty much one lane for the majority of Quebec street's length, it isn't a serious impact on traffic movement. The thing is way behind schedule and way over-budget because the condition of the bridge is actually in much worse shape internally than what was estimated. Imagine if that happened on a major artery... traffic would suck.

While I won't name specifics, the city could save a ton of money if they rid themselves of costly programs. Joe's tax freeze instead saw reductions on city infrastructure funding. As I stated earlier, this isn't Mississauga. Most of our infrastructure is dated and in need of repairs/replacements/upgrades along with expansions. Cutting funding in the short term means it will be much more expensive to simply maintain in the long term, especially if the system fails like the sinkhole we saw a few years back.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by haljackey

If Richmond had a 4 lane street running parallel to it (like Wellington if it didn't end) then I'd be for the on-street parking on one of these roads. The main north-south artery in central London shouldn't be blocked at any time in my opinion.

My feelings exactly. I could even understand the on-street parking if it really did bring new or more people to the downtown. Instead its used by the same cars on Richmond (around Central by the bong shop and coffee shops before Dufferin) that are using it as a convince to the hindrance of the flow of traffic on Richmond.

As well it doesn't help that all sorts of buses run Richmond, on-street parking makes driving in the area a giant game of frogger guessing which lane to get into.

Fact remains there's all sorts of parking available on side streets Dufferin Kent, Albert and Central, within 5 min walk of most of downtown. Hopefully Fontana and this pro-business council could change things soon!

Originally Posted by haljackey

While I won't name specifics, the city could save a ton of money if they rid themselves of costly programs. Joe's tax freeze instead saw reductions on city infrastructure funding.

Cutting funding in the short term means it will be much more expensive to simply maintain in the long term, especially if the system fails like the sinkhole we saw a few years back.

When he introduced his no-tax increase policy I didn't know that it included water and sewer charges too, I assumed just property taxes. Very short sighted decision not increasing that to the determent of our crumbling infrastructure. We're not Toronto, with all sorts of left-wing fees that have we can slash.

My only hope is that Fontana comes down hard on all these special interest groups looking for a hand out that Anne-Marie would pander to. Cities do need money to operate 911 services, libraries, buses, roads basic things. In recent years our council seems to have lost this focus on the basics and adopted a fund everything approach, with a do-nothing attitude to making any decisions with slightest whiff of controversy(deer overpopulation in Hyde Park).

[MolsonExport]

i hate the exeter et al. triangle of doom. If they are going to keep it, for god sakes, put in a friggen left turn lane already!

[Highinthesky]

I think the opposition is based on people's unfamiliarity with traffic circles in this part of the world. People just don't like new things haha

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

I think the opposition is based on people's unfamiliarity with traffic circles in this part of the world. People just don't like new things haha

Funny you should mention that...





The London Free Press

Londoners are about to find out driving around in circles really can get you somewhere.

The green flag will be lifted for drivers Friday on the city’s first major traffic roundabout, the $16-million Hale-Trafalgar overpass, after an opening ceremony.

Routine in Europe, the circular intersections are starting to pop up in Canadian cites. The Waterloo Region has about a dozen and London has a few small ones scattered in new subdivisions.

But even proponents of roundabouts concede some drivers will be wide-eyed and whiteknuckled when they enter the Hale-Trafalgar overpass for the first time.

Dave Leckie, London’s director of roads and transportation, says he has faith London drivers will adapt and won’t end up doing endless loops.

“I think people will err on the side of caution.”

But there are skeptics, such as the man who approached Leckie at one of the project’s public meetings.

“He told me Londoners are too stupid to drive on a roundabout. Well, if Waterloo drivers can handle them I think Londoners can,” Leckie said.

A video camera will be installed at the overpass so the road staff can monitor the flow of traffic, What: A circular intersection that channels vehicles in one direction around a central island. Right of way: Drivers in the roundabout have it. Entering/leaving: Drivers entering make a right turn and go around the circle to their exit. Speed limit: 50 km/h Benefits: No signals or stops; cuts fuel use, increases safety. he said.

Roundabouts take some getting used to, but are safer in the long run, said Steve Clark, who operates the Young Drivers of Canada driving school in London.

“You don’t have left-hand turns in front of speeding traffic. You don’t have traffic coming from different directions, (vehicles) are flowing around the roundabout.”

ROUNDABOUT Letters explaining the roundabout will be delivered to homes near the overpass, Leckie said. A pamphlet was also distributed in The Londoner Dec. 3.

Information will also be posted on the city’s website, he said, but there are no plans for an informational video — something Waterloo Region did.

The Hale-Trafalgar overpass will solve a chronic traffic problem in the area — cursed by drivers for years — caused by a CN Rail line crossing the streets at an odd angle.

CN Rail will benefit because the overpass will ease operations in its rail-marshalling yards.

Former city councillor Roger Caranci said the Hale-Trafalgar overpass was one of the first issues he tackled when he came on council in 2000. Pulling together the funding from the city, provincial and federal governments, and CN Rail was a tough fight.

“I found out it took 10 years to get a bridge built in the city of London,” Caranci said.

It’s closer to 20. At the project’s ground-breaking in February, Caranci’s colleague Bud Polhill found a city council document on the issue dating back to 1992.

The overpass will be named for the late Second World War fighter pilot Charley Fox, who lived in east London. A plaque honouring Fox will be installed.



The first time I drive on this, I'm going in circles. I don't care if I confuse other drivers, I want to celebrate.

[Highinthesky]

Hopefully this new snow ends and the road gets cleared for Friday. Don't need to opening to have snow and

But even proponents of roundabouts concede some drivers will be wide-eyed and whiteknuckled when they enter the Hale-Trafalgar overpass for the first time.

[go_leafs_go02]

I laugh. I drive through 2-lane roundabouts all the time here. 1-lane is as simple as you can get. It'll be fine. I'm sure.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I laugh. I drive through 2-lane roundabouts all the time here. 1-lane is as simple as you can get. It'll be fine. I'm sure.

Well some people argue that the traffic circle is extraordinary narrow compared to most other roundabouts. While this is true people have to realize that this is an overpass. A much larger structure would be required to increase the roundabout's circumference, and would cost a lot more money to boot.

I welcome roundabouts. Hopefully it will make London feel more like her big sister which has the highest number of roundabouts in the world.

[MolsonExport]

Roundabouts would be fine if they are cleared of snow. In my neighborhood, the snowclearing is beyond terrible (yes, I have complained), and going around the circle means spinning your wheels and swiping the side banks. 8-10 inches of snow...AFTER the snowplow. God help any pedestrians.

[haljackey]

Highway 401 westbound as seen from Wellington Road:



This is what most people see as they drive through London: wilderness.

Who's for developing the 401/402 corridors? I am, even though they're both outside our stupid urban growth boundary.

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by haljackey

This is what most people see as they drive through London: wilderness.

Who's for developing the 401/402 corridors? I am, even though they're both outside our stupid urban growth boundary.

Yes! Lets get to it already. After Wellington road, all you see from the 401 is some desperate looking no mans land around the prison, and then nothing. The corner of the 401/402 is currently occupied by a farm!

Screw the current urban growth boundry, the city needs to develop this area into an industrial park. To most people outside the area, this is what London is, the meeting place of the 401 and 402!

It's worth noting that thanks to the city's conservative urban growth boundry, the massive new Armatec factory chose to open up in my little hick town, rather than in the city itself, because it wouldn't change it slightly so it could be built around Highbury/401.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

Yes! Lets get to it already. After Wellington road, all you see from the 401 is some desperate looking no mans land

Screw the current urban growth boundry, the city needs to develop this area into an industrial park. To most people outside the area, this is what London is, the meeting place of the 401 and 402!

Doing this would make London look bigger to the average motorist passing by the city.

In addition, think of all the potential jobs developing these lands would create. Industries want to locate close to freeways so you're going to have some good demand. Developing the lands would bring jobs, and you need people to work in the companies once they are built.

With one of the highest unemployment numbers in the country (metro), and the Ford Plant closing next year, we need to do something drastic to create jobs. Developing these lands should have been done long ago.

Extending the urban growth boundary to a few hundred meters south of the 401 would be best. Creating a 4-way interchange with the 401 and VMP could allow a lot of industrial development take place on Wilton Grove east.

Joe said he would create jobs. This is a good way for him to keep his word. The LEDC (London Economic Development Corporation) has been pushing for 401/402 development for some time as well.

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Extending the urban growth boundary to a few hundred meters south of the 401 would be best. Creating a 4-way interchange with the 401 and VMP could allow a lot of industrial development take place on Wilton Grove east.

.

This is sort of already going on with the massive new industrial park around Bradley and VMP. The part west of VMP will be visible from the 401. I'm really interested to see this one develop because for the past 3 years it's all just been road construction.