Fargo-Moorhead developments information

[Midwesterner19]

Making people on a tourism brochure the lakes area are in Fargo, is similar to Denver's tourism board saying its right near Aspen or Fresno,California acting like its on the pacific. The lakes are an hour away, they are not near Fargo.

The winters here are very cold and there is no way to put it otherwise. Sure, we may have 30 degree temperatures in the middle of January but in my short-time here I have seen day-time highs of -15 and its not uncommon to have day-time highs in the -20s once every couple of years. I have also seen wind-chills of -50 at lunch-time and wind-chills dipping to -60 at night. That is extremely cold and makes Omaha feel like the tropics in the winter-time compared to here!! On Sunday, the high temperature was 97 degrees. Fargo has hot, humid summers with day-time highs averaging a Louisville, Kentucky like mid 80s.




Fargo is becoming a city of economic segregation, with the well-off living West and the poor living East. According to the census, Downtown Fargo's census tract shows a median household income of 13,000 and a poverty rate of 31% . This means Fargo is not an economically integrated community at all. I doubt the well-off are gonna move to a neighborhood of extreme poverty like downtown Fargo, they want to be where the McMansions and Hummer M3's are out towards West Acres and Osgood. I would not be suprised if the next high rise as talked about on previous threads is out towards West Acres, that is a very big retail corridor out there and everything is with-in 5 minutes from there (West Acres, SuperTarget (coming), Super Wal-Mart, numerous coffee shops and restaurants.


I think 13th avenue south will continue to be an economic hub, there are 185,000 people in the MSA so I dont see why their couldnt be a 2nd one off 52nd avenue in the Osgood area.

I was not here in the late 1990's, so I dont know what the downtown was like then.

I just dont see the downtown area though being anything more then a bar destination on Friday and Saturday nights. People in Fargo tend to eat out at a chain restaurant around West Acres and either stay near there or go to the ten or so bars downtown and then leave for suburbia at last call. Anything else except bars (a couple of bars very nice and quite pricey, Ive not been to them because of that) seem not to do good business. Unlike other cities I have lived people seem to be willing to sit inside the few-non bars downtown without customers and be patient.


I dont see any high-rises any time soon because devolopers require subsidies and the city government is subsidied out.

I doubt evening commutes will be a problem because it seems a majority of the jobs in Fargo are either around I-94 and 45th, in manufacturing areas along Main or at the university. Downtown has a dwindling relevance to the workforce of Fargo. Fargo's main industry is not downtown, they have 3 low-rise buildings that I see "for lease" signs outside!

One can take 12th avenue to Interstate 29 and go south to suburbia in 10 minutes, so their is no incentive to live downtown to save commute time.

According to the census bureau these are population growth rates for Fargo MSA...

2000 .9%
2001 .9%
2002 .6%
2003 1.0%
2004 2.2%
2005 1.2%
(You can see Cass County numbers at the census website)

[SmileyBoy]

Midwesterner, according to the latest 2005 county estimates by the US Census, Fargo-Moorhead-Wahpeton's metro area is 208,999 exactly (209,000 rounded off). PLEASE believe me!!!! I have personally talked to people at the NDSU demographic office at the State Data Center, and they have told me that the metro area is now designated as 4 counties - Cass, Clay, Richland and Wilkin, and will thusly be designated in the 2010 census. The reason why they are now counting those four counties is because of the increased population movement of the Fargo urban area southward, and the increase of people in Wahpeton-Breckenridge being employed in Fargo and Moorhead. Also, if you look at a map, you'll see that the area that Sioux Falls and F-M's 4-county metros cover are very close in size. Adding Wahpeton-Breckenridge to F-M's total is nothing like adding all whatever kind of stuff to Sioux Falls. The Census Bureau designates this stuff through well-thought out research. There is NO reason why someone should think it's OK if SF has a 4-county metro, but it's completely insane if F-M has one as well. Both urban areas have similar patterns of growth, and as a result, both have increased the area of their MSA's.

[SmileyBoy]

Originally Posted by Midwesterner19

According to the census, Downtown Fargo's census tract shows a median household income of 13,000 and a poverty rate of 31% .

Gee, you think?? In 2000, downtown was a STINKHOLE. I remember coming up here in 2001 to take a tour of NDSU, and then going downtown, and seeing how absolutely pathetic it was. This was 2001, fer chrissakes. Absolutely NO STATISTIC WHATSOEVER from the year 2000 regarding downtown has any sort of relevance to the current situation. Come back to me with some 2005-06 figures.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

Hello again midwesterner,

Pretty soon cities will be identified by : "no, that's the one with 3 Walmarts, 2 Home Depots and a Cabela's..." .

In Fargo EA the average wage per job is 30,000 and the median price of a home is 133,000.

People with large households who are paying bills on McMansions and SUV's are not gonna shop at locally owned botiques, they are gonna shop at large companies that have bargaining power to deliver them low prices.

I have to admit that I hope the big coffee chain Starbucks come to downtown Fargo, they provide a better quality service then what any in central/downtown Fargo has to offer. Look at the small hardware store on the other side of the bridge and then look at Home Depot, Home Depot offers much better selection. Off base here the Cabela's is a success story out of Sidney, Nebraska which I know people from there who say that town is by far the fastest growing town in Western Nebraska and I believe it, the amenities/stores the town provides are sure better then Kimball, Nebraska.

Alot of these locally businesses here in Fargo overprice and offer low quality food and then wonder why this city seems to be prefer chains.

[Midwesterner19]

Originally Posted by SmileyBoy

Gee, you think?? In 2000, downtown was a STINKHOLE. I remember coming up here in 2001 to take a tour of NDSU, and then going downtown, and seeing how absolutely pathetic it was. This was 2001, fer chrissakes. Absolutely NO STATISTIC WHATSOEVER from the year 2000 regarding downtown has any sort of relevance to the current situation. Come back to me with some 2005-06 figures.

I am just curious do you know how many market-rate lofts or condos they have built downtown since 2000 and where they are located?

I know they have the ones on the other side of the street from the greyhound station and they have a few (looke like about 5 units) on Broadway and NP.

Thats pretty much all I have seen that looks new in the last 5 years that currently has tenants.

209,000 people in the MSA that includes Wahpeton micropolitan area. I thought it was a 2 county metro but its 4 counties. Sorry about that, my mistake.

[SmileyBoy]

Originally Posted by Midwesterner19

I am just curious do you know how many market-rate lofts or condos they have built downtown since 2000 and where they are located?

I know they have the ones on the other side of the street from the greyhound station and they have a few (looke like about 5 units) on Broadway and NP.

Thats pretty much all I have seen that looks new in the last 5 years that currently has tenants.

As far as I know, there have been four new condo developments that were new construction so far in the Downtown neighbourhood that have been completed: 300 NP, 10 Broadway, 385 South Seventh and 404 Manor. This does not include many other residential renovation projects including Bristol Place, US&T, Kaye's Printing, The Fargoan, and a lot more smaller projects that have 1st-floor retail and upper-floor residential that can be viewed here: http://www.cityoffargo.com/Planning/...escription.htm

[SmileyBoy]

Fargo wants to extend its extraterritorial boundary to 112th Avenue South. This doesn't look good, folks. Fargo may end up being a thin, long narrow city with a screwed-up infrastructure system. More reason for Fargo, West Fargo and Horace to merge into one city, I say.




City tries to extend its reach
By Mike Nowatzki, The Forum
Published Wednesday, May 31, 2006

Fargo is trying to extend its reach to the south for the first time in five years in an attempt to protect the city’s future growth options.

City planners met with Stanley Township officials Tuesday to go over a plan to bring roughly 2,000 acres of mostly farmland into Fargo’s extraterritorial (ET) area.

North Dakota law allows cities of 25,000 or more to exercise their ET zoning authority four miles outside of city limits. Fargo’s ET area currently reaches 3½ miles south of city limits.

The current proposal would extend Fargo’s ET area to 112th Avenue South, reserving the land for future annexation by Fargo if development spreads that far south.

“We want to make sure we’re protecting the city of Fargo’s interests,” Senior Planner Jim Hinderaker said.

The effort is partially in response to annexation actions taken by the city of Horace, Hinderaker said.

The Horace City Council voted May 1 to annex nearly five square miles of surrounding land, more than doubling the size of its city. Fargo city commissioners reacted a week later by voting to annex 795 acres east of Horace. The cities also are headed to mediation over two sections of land between Horace and West Fargo.

Fargo’s proposed ET expansion area includes 160 acres in Horace’s annexation area. Hinderaker said Fargo won’t change its plan, even though Horace will most likely end up with the land.

“I think we’re just following procedure,” he said.

The ET expansion will likely go before the Fargo Planning Commission in July. Property owners in the affected area will be notified. The Fargo City Commission must approve an ordinance to make official the expanded ET area.

All of the land is zoned agricultural, with a smattering of residential farmsteads, Stanley Township Zoning Administrator Perry Ronning said.

Ronning, a former mayor of Horace, and township attorney Jonathan Garaas, also Horace’s city attorney, said they anticipate some rural residents will be opposed to being absorbed by Fargo’s ET area.

Residents would continue to receive township services such as road grading and snowplowing, Ronning said. Fargo would handle their building permits, zoning and floodplain management.

The last major expansion of Fargo’s ET area was in 2001, when the city annexed the Woodhaven development and extended the ET area to the south, Fargo Planning Director Jim Gilmour said.

Fargo’s ET area reaches only 1 mile north of city limits. Gilmour said the city plans to extend its ET area in that direction “as soon as we have time.”

[NanoBison]

This just in on the Forum : City tries to extend its reach

It's about time Fargo took a stance against the ridiculous Annexations of Horace... It should add approximately 2,000 acres into Fargo's Extraterritorial Area.

I see Midwesterner once again posted replies to me. Crap, I'm going to be up for another hour.



[modified] Cripes Smiley you beat me to it...!!!!!!

[SmileyBoy]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

This just in on the Forum : City tries to extend its reach

It's about time Fargo took a stance against the ridiculous Annexations of Horace... It should add approximately 2,000 acres into Fargo's Extraterritorial Area.

I see Midwesterner once again posted replies to me. Crap, I'm going to be up for another hour.



[modified] Cripes Smiley you beat me to it...!!!!!!

You owe me a Coke.

Seriously though, I don't like the looks of this deal. All three cities should just get together and at least work out some kind of multilateral growth plan, maybe even possibly a city merger. I've always said that a city merger would work best for the future. No more squabbles over school district funding, infrastructure, taxes, etc.

But with the ultraconservative, individualistic attitudes of the leaderships of WF and Horace, I don't see it happening...

[NanoBison]

Midwesterner, the city is NOT becoming an segregated community of economic classes. The most expensive homes in the Fargo-Moorhead Area lay on the Eastern side of the Interstate... In fact most of them can be found on Harwood Drive or Rose Creek Boulevard. Some nice homes next to the river. Don't forget the homes on the historic 8th St. district. One of them is going for 1.9 million. The other sold for 1.2 million. Almost forgot the 1 million home north of Innovis (dark red brick, beautiful home).

Plus the lakes area is less than 45 minutes from the Metropolitan Area. We do the same thing people from the Cities do on the weekends in the summertime. Except we drive different directions getting there and coming back. It's perfectly plausible to say we have the Lakes area right next to us, becuase we do.

Anyways, Midwesterner, I can respect your opinions, but please quite being so negative about the city and surrounding area, or the efforts to grow downtown. We'll you can actually do what you want, free speech and all, but it takes away the flavor of this post.

[NanoBison]

I agree Smiley, I don't like Fargo Stretching into a linear city that's 20 miles long. But with the way Annexations are done currently (crapily setup), I don't think Fargo could setup a meeting with any city next to the land they want to annex to make sure both parties are on good terms, becuase the city, like Horace, would schedule the meeting and then behind the back of Fargo, submit their annexation request that same day and legally be the proper recipient of that land, once all the red tape is finished. They get it becuase they submitted first.

I think Horace was acting like asses when they annexed 5 SQUARE MILES!!!
That more than doubled the land in their city and they have no way to support any infrastructure. Their sewage in fact runs right to the Red and gets processed in our Water Treatment Center. Talk about leeching.

In fact, Fargo should just move ahead and setup all their ET land NOW. Surround all the smaller communities and make sure we not only have room to grow to the south, but to the north as well. We should even start trying to gobble up West Fargo.

[NanoBison]

Originally Posted by BigTicket

I guess I better give my two cents about the discussions taking place here..

This article really explains why I love living in Fargo and don't mind bearing the cold winter months...
http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=128323

The image from that article is why I love Fargo...(the girl fishing....and lots of other college girl hotties... farmer's daughters aren't bad either.... )



Come to think of it, this is another reason we out-do Sioux Falls. College Hotties. They got nothing on us. We have a Hooter's for heavens sakes.
(At this point I'm sure even Midwesterner will attempt to ruin this by saying, "yeah, but the food sucks" or something negative as usual, but with them (see below) as your waitress does it matter what the food tastes like???)



Anyways, back to the forum...

[SmileyBoy]

Originally Posted by NanoBison

I agree Smiley, I don't like Fargo Stretching into a linear city that's 20 miles long. But with the way Annexations are done currently (crapily setup), I don't think Fargo could setup a meeting with any city next to the land they want to annex to make sure both parties are on good terms, becuase the city, like Horace, would schedule the meeting and then behind the back of Fargo, submit their annexation request that same day and legally be the proper recipient of that land, once all the red tape is finished. They get it becuase they submitted first.

I think Horace was acting like asses when they annexed 5 SQUARE MILES!!!
That more than doubled the land in their city and they have no way to support any infrastructure. Their sewage in fact runs right to the Red and gets processed in our Water Treatment Center. Talk about leeching.

In fact, Fargo should just move ahead and setup all their ET land NOW. Surround all the smaller communities and make sure we not only have room to grow to the south, but to the north as well. We should even start trying to gobble up West Fargo.

WF and Horace need to be given some incentives by Fargo in order for something like a merger to work. Maybe 10 years of certain tax breaks, or something like that. I don't think it's in any city's best interest to try and undermine any other city. Bit I think Horace is the real wild card in this whole thing. Horace just came completely out of left field. 915 people lived there in 2000, and now I'm hearing from places that it has exploded to close to 2,500. This whole situation also depends on how Horace wants to grow as a community, because remember, Horace was (at one time) a seperate farming town, but has now been infused with the urban area of F-M. I think the wishes of people in Horace and how they want to grow as a town should be taken more seriously than the wishes of West Fargo people, IMO. WF has basically been leeching a lot of stuff off Fargo for a long time anyway.

[NanoBison]

Agreed. But I don't think that either city would go for it.

[Reichert]

OK, I just read the dozens of posts on this thread since I last visited here. Here are my observations:

Osgood. I don't think the Shoppes itself will decline 13th Avenue, but any development past that could leach a good amount of the business off of 13th, especially if the Super Target still gets built on 52nd Avenue South.

13th Avenue Redevelopment. I think the area of 13th Avenue east of 45th Street could use a serious dose of redevelopment. Blowtorching the old K-Mart would be a helluva start. I just think that most of the retail to the east of Wal-Mart just doesn't look that great and it is getting quite worn around the ages save for West Acres itself, which underwent an outstanding remodel a few years back.

West Fargo and Horace. These cities are fighting Fargo as if they are using the extraterritorial powers of a Houston, Texas. If you want to see REAL abuse of the ETJ powers try looking up that city. They basically annexed the suburbs by sucking them up whole. I don't see Fargo trying to do that with West Fargo, not even close. But Fargo does need to protect their tax base and the ability to expand it...if not they will meet the fate of larger core cities such as Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and St. Louis which wound up being surrounded first, then watched their middle and upper class tax base run to the suburbs en masse. This resulted in severely decaying and rotting core cities. Only recently have these cities been able to turn the corner. I believe that EVERY municipality in Cass County needs to sit down together and hammer out a long range growth plan and "treaty" to base future annexations and growth off of.

East vs. West. I do agree that alot of the upper end income people do live west of I-29. But before you bemoan things east of the interstate consider this: There is a smattering of upper income people moving downtown, Rose Creek is definitely east of I-29, and some of the nicest homes in Fargo are right around the Fargo Country Club, right on the Red River.

North Fargo. Nobody's mentioned this one yet. But I think north Fargo is an area of vast potential that only a few people are starting to realize (such as the developers who want to work with the 19th Avenue and University Drive corner). Think about it...this area is close to Newman Outdoor Field, NDSU, the Research Park, the Fargodome, and Hector Airport. If someone wants to be really imaginative they should look at some of the Fargo ET area north of County Road 20 and the airport. This is an area of tremendous potential, so if someone doesn't want to deal with the southwest side they might want to give north Fargo a whirl.

I don't live in the F-M area anymore, but there are days I wish I could go back. I live in the Twin Cities and since I don't work in the tech industry it would be hard for me to come back and get a top notch job like the one I have here. In addition, my wife's entire family lives down here and moving her to Fargo would be traumatic. But I do miss the relative safety and nicer pace of life Fargo has to offer.

[Midwesterner19]

I dont think Fargo will have a decreasing tax base because they are going to aquire annexation rights all the down to 112th avenue south. The cities alluded to on the last post (like Des Moines, Pittsburgh, St. Louis and many smaller ones) have virtually no annexation powers but Fargo does, Omaha is another city that has liberal annexation powers. I think as far as the overall tax base it will grow overall as all this devolopment comes on-line in areas to the south like to 112th and west. Property taxes will be a problem though as these high-value McMansions continue to be built, but then again the mill-levy cuts
are popular now (it doesnt impact me because I am a renter). Then again the people in the McMansions in far south Fargo dont have to worry about taxes like the majority of people the East side of Fargo.

North Fargo I dont think any large retail devolopment has alot of potential.
I have been there many times and the several blocks of 19th avenue north retail is not vibrant at all, you would think with 12,000 students at NDSU that there would be MUCH more people shopping on 19th avenue north but they all have cars anyway so what is a 5 minute drive to West Acres mean to them. NDSU is located in a neighborhood full of wood-framed 3 bedroom homes that are not maintained and there is hardly any retail at all near the college, they have one restaurant/bar that does good business other then a gas station nothing else!. I know they have top-rated engineering programs at NDSU, but the college campus is about as vibrant as a community college maybe even a little less so. You literally dont know a college campus is there until your on the campus. 7th avenue North just 5 blocks south of campus is one of the least attractive areas in Fargo with many run-down homes, vacant lots and is also a high traffic speed street which decreases desirability.

I will say that the Interstate exits off Interstate 29 in North Fargo have huge potential for restaurants, but the further off the interstate you get the less potential there is. Look at the HUGE popular travel plaza and restaurant they have that kind of devolopment goes over huge in Fargo because people like stuff here thats along an Interstate. Fargoans tend to be in more of a hurry then people in large cities!




To clarify what I said on earlier post:
I know they have nice areas in East Fargo, such as the North-East side along the river. Anything East of 8th or so outside of the downtown is in good shape. To clatify its primarily the area from 10th to 38th streets and Main to 13th avenues I meant by east side that have major issues with blight.

[NanoBison]

I agree with you Reichert, North Fargo's potential isn't being fully realized by the people running the city. Reichert, not sure HOW far back you've been reading, but keep going. We dabled on possibilities for North Fargo. Also that old crappy KMart building on 13th is being gutted and redone as a Burlington Coat Factory.

Family is most important, and you sound like you have a job you enjoy. I'd hate to try to convince you to move back, especially with your family being down there.

[NanoBison]

Remember midwesterner, that West Acres was developed on basically an open field between the two cities. Nothing around for miles. Dirt road was the only way to get out there when it was built. North Fargo does have a lot of potential. It has to be developed right. But Fargo should at this time gobble up the maximum amount of land in it's ET, especially North of the City, to make sure we've got room to grow. Otherwise we are going to be completely surrounded and high no where to grow but upwards (high-rises). Higher-Density development in areas that already have too much traffic.

[Reichert]

I agree that north of the city is where Fargo should make a grab for more ET area. At this point Fargo's ET area extends the maximum four miles to the south (at least once the extension to 112th Avenue South is taken in) but it only goes about a mile to the north. There is one problem with a northward expansion, though, and it's called the Sheyenne River. Harwood could easily become the next Horace, but developers are likely to be loath to go north of County 20 without a viable flood plan for the area where the Sheyenne flows into the Red north and east of Harwood. Once this situation is squared away, though, I could see Harwood making a bid for further development, and indeed a map of cities and ET areas indicates that Harwood already has staked some ET claim southward down I-29.

When I'm looking at development possibilities for north Fargo this is the area I'm referring to for the most part. At this time only a few McMansions occupy the area of this close to the Red. But the area between County Road 20 and Harwood could be a development frontier. In addition, some redevelopment along 19th Avenue North could be very much in order.

[F-Misthebest]

Originally Posted by Midwesterner19

In Fargo EA the average wage per job is 30,000 and the median price of a home is 133,000.

People with large households who are paying bills on McMansions and SUV's are not gonna shop at locally owned botiques, they are gonna shop at large companies that have bargaining power to deliver them low prices.

I have to admit that I hope the big coffee chain Starbucks come to downtown Fargo, they provide a better quality service then what any in central/downtown Fargo has to offer. Look at the small hardware store on the other side of the bridge and then look at Home Depot, Home Depot offers much better selection. Off base here the Cabela's is a success story out of Sidney, Nebraska which I know people from there who say that town is by far the fastest growing town in Western Nebraska and I believe it, the amenities/stores the town provides are sure better then Kimball, Nebraska.

Alot of these locally businesses here in Fargo overprice and offer low quality food and then wonder why this city seems to be prefer chains.

People with who have lots of money will also shop at botiques. Have you been to Uptown Cottage in Downtown Fargo. It does extremely well with their neat cape cod style furniture. I know plenty of botiques in downtown that have done well. Rich people don't just want to shop at Home Depot or Big Box retailers at all. That is a horibble stereotype. There are plenty of wealthy people walking downtown everyday. Believe me. I've seen it. I visit my dad in downtown a lot and there is a lot of wealthy people walking in downtown Fargo & Moorhead. How do you think those stores stay open. Use your noodle.

This has nothing to do in what I was talking about just previously, but I think we neeeeed some good chain restaurants past I-29. Any restaurant (Even Taco John's) does extremely well on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night. If you open a Macaroni Grill down south you would get all the rich Rose Creek people to eat there. I also think we need some curvy roads and have them named. Let me explain. Take 76th Ave south. Right now it is a gravel farm road that doesn't get much traffic, but since this is the direction that Fargo is growing (and its 24 blocks south of 52) this will eventually become another retail road. I see it building an exit and being 4 lanes. Since it is a dirt road now they should make it paved, but don't just call it 76th. BORING. Every street is like that. Name it like Midwest Drive, or Meadow Road, something not boring. Yesterday when I drove through Sioux Falls I stopped at Culvers. It was on a very busy, curvy, named road. Don't make it a straight boring road. Give it some pizazz.