Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Wigs

The vote was 62 in favour to 55 against, with 2 others abstaining. That's a lot of legislators that knew it would be discriminatory against 2.1 million Arabs or 21% of Israel's population, and any other current or future minorities.

Most of those 55 had issue with a handful of specific clauses, not the law itself.

It was only the ivory tower academia types in Israel who actually opposed the law itself as a concept.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of Israel as a Jewish state. It's literally what the country is there for. Opposing that concept is opposing Israel's right to exist.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Most of those 55 had issue with a handful of specific clauses, not the law itself.

It was only the ivory tower academia types in Israel who actually opposed the law itself as a concept.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of Israel as a Jewish state. It's literally what the country is there for. Opposing that concept is opposing Israel's right to exist.

Exactly. (To the part I bolded.) That new law was already implicit from the beginning. It’s as if the Parliament in Prague had nothing to do these days so they decided to look busy by voting a law that says Czechia is the homeland of the Czech people; it would change nothing to anything.

If you don’t want to live in a Jewish state, you have some 150 countries to pick from.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. (To the part I bolded.) That new law was already implicit from the beginning. It’s as if the Parliament in Prague had nothing to do these days so they decided to look busy by voting a law that says Czechia is the homeland of the Czech people; it would change nothing to anything.

If you don’t want to live in a Jewish state, you have some 150 countries to pick from.

I think you guys' take is the right one legally and geopolitically, but the argument of the pro-Palestinian side is that the Jewish Israeli state was created on top of them when they were already there.

[lio45]

Easily fixed by having every single Jewish event or business meeting from now on until the end of times begin with an “acknowledgment they’re on Traditional Palestinian Land” while everything else is business as usual

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. (To the part I bolded.) That new law was already implicit from the beginning. It’s as if the Parliament in Prague had nothing to do these days so they decided to look busy by voting a law that says Czechia is the homeland of the Czech people; it would change nothing to anything.

If you don’t want to live in a Jewish state, you have some 150 countries to pick from.

The expulsion of Germans who had been living in lands now known as the Czech Republic. But of course nobody likes to dump on those nice Czechs...

[YOUTUBE]APd04D2JWF8[YOUTUBE]

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. (To the part I bolded.) That new law was already implicit from the beginning. It’s as if the Parliament in Prague had nothing to do these days so they decided to look busy by voting a law that says Czechia is the homeland of the Czech people; it would change nothing to anything.

If you don’t want to live in a Jewish state, you have some 150 countries to pick from.

The expulsion of Germans who had been living in lands now known as the Czech Republic. But of course nobody likes to dump on those nice Czechs...

• Video Link

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you guys' take is the right one legally and geopolitically, but the argument of the pro-Palestinian side is that the Jewish Israeli state was created on top of them when they were already there.

Treating Palestinians in West Bank as second class and Palestinians in Gaza as third class is how we got here.

Failure to acknowledge the apartheid State Israel has created is how we got here in 2023. It doesn't justify brutal terrorism, it helps to explain why it's been 75 years of endless Israeli-Palestinian conflict and bloodshed.

Treating 21% of Israel's population (Arab) as second class isn't going to be helpful for Israel in the long term.

You also can't remove 5.3 million Palestinians (~2.3 million in Gaza, ~3 million in West Bank).
Something like 2/3 of Palestinians are refugees in their multigenerational homeland. Some living hundreds of metres from where their grandparents and great grandparents were forced off their land in 1948 and 1967.
________________
Israel will lose a lot of worldwide support if it turns out Gaza becomes an Israeli land grab for the entire strip.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Treating Palestinians in West Bank as second class and Palestinians in Gaza as third class is how we got here.
]

Minor quibble here but I don't think the ordering is correct.

From best to worst (not saying any of these are optimal)...

1 - Arab citizens of Israel (may be Palestinian or not)

2 - Palestinians in Gaza (pre-Oct. 7, 2023) - not a great situation but Israelis mostly stayed out of your business and your face until very recently

3 - Palestinians in the West Bank - hostility and intimidation (and sometimes violence) from Israeli settlers and armed forces who are in close proximity to you on an everyday basis

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Minor quibble here but I don't think the ordering is correct.

I'd quibble with the idea that the very complicated path can be reduced to something about treating people like lower class citizens. Palestinian politics and religion also play a starring role in this. They are intransigent about accepting deals (two-state solutions) but then complain as the deal gets worse over time. They have a major related problem with Islamism; the government of Gaza explicitly states that they want to wipe out Israel, which is not a good goal and not practical. Other Arab neighbours contribute to the siege mentality in Israel.

This does not absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions but they don't have any good options. I don't know how much Hamas or Palestinians care about the Western peanut gallery but I don't think it helps to enable Hamas and funding or aid without incentives is generally going to worsen the situation. The component of Western sentiment that boils issues down to colonial oppressor vs. oppressed and then cheers on the oppressed side burning everything down is awful and usually makes that blindly politically favoured side into even bigger losers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'd quibble with the idea that the very complicated path can be reduced to something about treating people like lower class citizens. Palestinian politics and religion also play a starring role in this. They are intransigent about accepting deals (two-state solutions) but then complain as the deal gets worse over time. They have a major related problem with Islamism; the government of Gaza explicitly states that they want to wipe out Israel, which is not a good goal and not practical. Other Arab neighbours contribute to the siege mentality in Israel.
.

Agreed of course. Though if you look at my pecking order, among the best of a bad lot, the ones at the top are still those who agree to play ball with Israel somewhat, i.e. Arab citizens of Israel.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This does not absolve Israel of responsibility for their actions but they don't have any good options. I don't know how much Hamas or Palestinians care about the Western peanut gallery but I don't think it helps to enable Hamas and funding or aid without incentives is generally going to worsen the situation. The component of Western sentiment that boils issues down to colonial oppressor vs. oppressed and then cheers on the oppressed side burning everything down is awful and usually makes that blindly politically favoured side into even bigger losers.

Viewed from my window, or perhaps more accurately my kid's window in Montreal since I am in the burbs of Gatineau, the Palestinians aren't doing too badly in terms of the PR game.

Especially when you consider how far behind they started out.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agreed of course. Though if you look at my pecking order, among the best of a bad lot, the ones at the top are still those who agree to play ball with Israel somewhat, i.e. Arab citizens of Israel.

There's back-and-forth that is creating a negative feedback loop, and the only really good outcome looks like the Arab citizen situation. But this doesn't mean that Israel has a path to get there, let alone that a ceasefire with aid for Hamas is it. And nobody knows what will happen in general.

Another side point is that the Hamas attack revealed that Israel had less capacity than a lot of people were saying, changing things on both sides. If Israel were omnipotent, sure, everything would be their fault. But if they were they would not have allowed Hamas to do what it did. Israel is small and vulnerable, and the people who didn't update their priors after Oct 7 look pretty bad.

[someone123]

Completely different topic but I wonder if the struggling Chinese economy, particularly the residential real estate sector, will create opportunities for Canada to more cheaply build infrastructure that requires inputs globally-traded commodity inputs like steel and concrete. There could also in theory be some underemployed Chinese construction workers, but importing workers is more complicated.

We had an epic global misallocation of infrastructure development with Chinese government policies encouraging construction of tons of low value to useless stuff there while their population began shrinking. Meanwhile a city like Toronto needs 50%+ more transportation infrastructure.

[Wigs]

Worth reading this New Yorker interview

I recently spoke by phone with Hagai El-Ad, an Israeli activist and the former executive director of the nonprofit organization B’Tselem, which works on human-rights issues in the occupied territories. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed what October 7th did and did not change in the West Bank, how the process of removing families from their land occurs, and Israel’s long-term plans for the West Bank.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and...-the-west-bank

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

Completely different topic but I wonder if the struggling Chinese economy, particularly the residential real estate sector, will create opportunities for Canada to more cheaply build infrastructure that requires inputs globally-traded commodity inputs like steel and concrete. There could also in theory be some underemployed Chinese construction workers, but importing workers is more complicated.

We had an epic global misallocation of infrastructure development with Chinese government policies encouraging construction of tons of low value to useless stuff there while their population began shrinking. Meanwhile a city like Toronto needs 50%+ more transportation infrastructure.

I've often wondered about this. We could probably build affordable housing at the volumes we need and affordable subways and high speed rail if we just let the Chinese manage the project from end-to-end and bring in their workers.

Of course, Canadian labour unions, project managers and construction companies would have a field day and would stand in the way, but the stakeholder that really deserves the blame for this is the Chinese Communist Party. They could actually have a trillion dollar export industry and employ tens of millions of their disgruntled young men, but their "proof of concepts" to the 50% of the world economy that lives in democratic Western countries is absolute shit.

Whenever they build infrastructure in a developing country, they do so with predatory loans or mafioso-like contractual obligations. I live near an infamous rapid transit project that hasn't opened 13 years after it broke ground and whose cost has ballooned, but I'd rather deal with this than have to go through what the Kenyans are saddled with after working with China. They can't help but load their telecom equipment for export with spying devices. Nobody wants to take part in their parallel big tech universe - the only ones that can challenge the American Silicon Valley hegemons - for similar reasons. China has serious trust issues and has almost no soft power in the world today.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you guys' take is the right one legally and geopolitically, but the argument of the pro-Palestinian side is that the Jewish Israeli state was created on top of them when they were already there.

Not the worst argument in the world, but the fact is that both the Jewish and Palestinian populations had valid territorial claims to the area and the UN concluded that partition - ie. A 2 state solution - was the right way to accommodate both. Of course no Palestinian state has yet been created nearly eight decades later, and that's the real problem.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agreed of course. Though if you look at my pecking order, among the best of a bad lot, the ones at the top are still those who agree to play ball with Israel somewhat, i.e. Arab citizens of Israel.

Arab citizens of Israel can definitely become part of the Israeli "us" if they try. Recent years have seen a growing number of Arab Israelis getting middle class jobs and moving into Jewish neighborhoods.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Not the worst argument in the world, but the fact is that both the Jewish and Palestinian populations had valid territorial claims to the area and the UN concluded that partition - ie. A 2 state solution - was the right way to accommodate both. Of course no Palestinian state has yet been created nearly eight decades later, and that's the real problem.

Why a Palestinian state was not created in 1948 has always intrigued me a lot.

Did a bit of reading on that recently and it dispelled a few of the "bad guy" assumptions I had relative to what transpired.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Arab citizens of Israel can definitely become part of the Israeli "us" if they try. Recent years have seen a growing number of Arab Israelis getting middle class jobs and moving into Jewish neighborhoods.

I've heard this too though on the other hand it's widely disputed enough that my guess is that while not horrible (and definitely way better than living in Gaza or the West Bank) it's still not full acceptance and there is still some mistrust, discrimination and nastiness that they are subjected to.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Not the worst argument in the world, but the fact is that both the Jewish and Palestinian populations had valid territorial claims to the area and the UN concluded that partition - ie. A 2 state solution - was the right way to accommodate both. Of course no Palestinian state has yet been created nearly eight decades later, and that's the real problem.

The Jewish leadership in 1947 said okay to the UN partition plan, they were fine with that, then the Arabs said no way and war ensued, and when the losers wanted peace, the winners ended up with more land than in the original plan — which is pretty much in the natural order of things.

Is it fair enough that post-1945 Germany has significantly less territory (to this day!) than it used to, as a result of decisions made by the Adolf Hitler that the Germans chose to democratically elect?

If the Germans can live with less nowadays, and have accepted their losses, I don’t see why the Palestinians can’t. Every time they decide it’s a good idea to attack Israel, they end up even worse than before. Don’t they learn?