[St. John's] Restaurant Thread

[cam477]

It's at the Lions Club next to the St. John's Curling Club. I think it starts up around the May 24 weekend or early June and runs until Christmas. You can get a lot of great food there from different cultures.

[Robg]

Ah pefect thanks! I'll have to check that out.

[mrjanejacobs]

Aaerynot (derp-sp?) - I was speculating on Calgary and food trucks, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I am aware Calgary has a pretty pleasant, urban downtown.

There is opportunity for some great, walkable communities in our City and they are not out of reach. A lot of this problem, in my opinion, resides in flawed zoning. Or a lack of mixed-use planning/development. Rabbittown, Georgetown, Newtown (official name?), the area around MUN - these neighbourhoods all have the opportunity to be quite walkable. We just need more commerce and things worth walking to in these communities. They are already quite pleasant but improvements in connectivity, mixed use living, and public space could really turn these neighbourhoods upside down (in a good way).

Re Farmer's Markets - there was some talk in the past of the old Metrobus Terminal on Freshwater being retrofitted as a Farmer's Market. I think this could be hugely successful. It's in a pretty central location and it's a pretty dynamic space - it could function indoors on rainy days, outside on sunny days, artisan studios could be integrated into the design (because it's a very multi-use/industrial-style space), a public space/plaza could be built in front of the building, there's a park (severely underused) across the street. Canopies could be constructed in front of the terminal building, the bus-style lift-up entrances can accommodate fluid foot movement as well as the delivery of foods/supplies. This is an exciting concept! Hopefully it can be explored further as it could really activate the centre of the City.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

There is opportunity for some great, walkable communities in our City and they are not out of reach. A lot of this problem, in my opinion, resides in flawed zoning. Or a lack of mixed-use planning/development. Rabbittown, Georgetown, Newtown (official name?), the area around MUN - these neighbourhoods all have the opportunity to be quite walkable. We just need more commerce and things worth walking to in these communities. They are already quite pleasant but improvements in connectivity, mixed use living, and public space could really turn these neighbourhoods upside down (in a good way).

All areas I would consider to be "almost" walkable... but none of them are. The closest is probably MUN, with campus and Churchill Square / Park all close proximity. The problem is these are all neighbourhoods made up of almost 95% residential. Georgetown has the pub and the bakery, but is also has a very, very noteable population of NIMBYs. Rabbittown is notoriously "skeety", but does have a smattering of commercial throughout the neighbourhood. Still, I don't think it has enough to draw anyone from outside of the neighbourhood into it.

How do you turn neighbourhoods that have historically been almost exclusively residential into mixed-used neighbourhoods? Question I'm going to toss out there for discussion. How does it happen? Does it need a push from residents?

Also, Manna's Bakery is awesome.

[statbass]

Originally Posted by Copes

Just want to confirm something.

I might be getting confused, but are we certain beyond a doubt that a PF Changs IS going there? My roommate seems to think it is a local chef who is opening a restaurant and bar. Maybe he is in part of the building? Maybe my roommate is completely off base? I'll ask him.

From what I've read (and what's been previously quoted here) is that two restaurants will be going in that location: 1) PF Changs and, 2) a locally owned Italian restaurant called Legros and Motti. Maybe your roommate was referring to the latter.

** Edit: This should probably be moved over to the Restaurant Thread. Can one of the mods please move my post? Thanks.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by statbass

From what I've read (and what's been previously quoted here) is that two restaurants will be going in that location: 1) PF Changs and, 2) a locally owned Italian restaurant called Legros and Motti. Maybe your roommate was referring to the latter.

** Edit: This should probably be moved over to the Restaurant Thread. Can one of the mods please move my post? Thanks.

Legros and Motti. That sounds like what he was telling me about. My mistake.

3 restaurants in that small area, along with the Murray Premises and walking distance to George? It could be worse. I would think that it will bring some people to the sidewalks. A rooftop bar would be AWESOME in that location. I think it could help a lot, as we were discussing at the forum meet last night. Would drive traffic between there and George / Water much more frequently then we currently see.

[mrjanejacobs]

I agree - they are almost walkable, livable communities. They are not lost causes (unlike, say, Paradise). They are dense enough to have an economy of scale for a robust service sector.

There are policies that the City can put in place to encourage commercial development in these neighbourhoods. There are incentives the City can put in place for businesses to set up in these neighbourhoods as well, to attract business owners with tax-breaks or low tax-rates. Retrofits of residential units are possible, but probably tough given the nature of the traditional residential design of these row-houses - though certainly possible.

I wish I knew more about the concrete mechanisms in place for accomplishing this. i know they are out there, as I have read about them in the past. But I can't quote them. I'll try to get back to you with some concise examples.

However, you would be surprised with some of the small interventions which can attract business owners. A public space, a plaza, a nice park or garden, even just a really hip and trendy bar could spin off development in a district by activating a block, a street or an entire neighbourhood. The example of a Farmer's Market at Empire and Freshwater (old Metrobus terminal) could really have positive spinoffs for the local (neighbourhood-scale) commercial sector. More people visit this location for the park and the market, then business owners see opportunity here and want to buy a parcel of land to open up a shop, etc.

A concern is actually that few business owners (except those with large capital for investment) will build. Most wish to rent. Then we can ask ourselves - how can we develop appropriate commercial space that has character and invites (small) business? Architectural design can be the key to this question. Who undertakes this? Tough question. Private developers often won't have the altruism to pursue a questionably unprofitable venture (though I would disagree that it's not profitable if an understanding of urbanism and gentrification is present). Should the government build these locations? Questionable - socialized development is a bit of a hot potato - but at the same time, it will help residents, the neighbourhood, and will provide profit for the public purse - an investment like any other.

I wouldn't hope for a push from residents (most are disengaged) but often this occurs if in a neighbourhood in transition (in the process of gentrifying). Gentrification is a pretty taboo concept/word, but it doesn't always lead to ill-effects. It has good and bad repercussions. Personally, I would favour the positives to the negatives in the context of St.John's or a neighbourhood like Rabbittown, because the extremes of a class-society, segregation, and income inequality aren't so stark in our City like in bigger, more capitalist ones.

[mrjanejacobs]

Sorry for the long-winded response. haha I have given this question a lot of thought and often find myself chewing on the possibilities. I still search for clarity in this question, however.

[Copes]

Don't apologize, great response. Retrofitting residential buildings, or even some bulldozing, may be the only way to make space for commercial in these communities. That is where I find you tend to run into issues. Retrofits may be deemed "better", but in many cases they aren't really viable given the nature of the row-houses (you're right). If you suggest knocking down a few though, all of a sudden you DO have engaged citizens, but not in the way that we want. My experience is that citizens don't see changes such as these as improvements, they consider it almost an attack on a neighbourhood.

Reuses are huge for kickstarting otherwise one-dimensional neighbourhoods, I find. I agree with your assessment of the positive effects the Metrobus building could have. The Freshwater area is sort of already there as well. Bordering Rabbittown and MUN, lots of walking students, lots of commerical along the street... the problem is that right now, there are very few places that someone wants to stop along Freshwater. You walk Freshwater in order to get somewhere else. You never walk Freshwater to get to Freshwater. You might stop into Stockwoods, Manna's, or the pharmacy... but its still not a pedestrian friendly street. The farmer's market in the bus depot could be huge.

Also, a good point is raised:

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

A concern is actually that few business owners (except those with large capital for investment) will build. Most wish to rent. Then we can ask ourselves - how can we develop appropriate commercial space that has character and invites (small) business? Architectural design can be the key to this question. Who undertakes this? Tough question. Private developers often won't have the altruism to pursue a questionably unprofitable venture (though I would disagree that it's not profitable if an understanding of urbanism and gentrification is present). Should the government build these locations? Questionable - socialized development is a bit of a hot potato - but at the same time, it will help residents, the neighbourhood, and will provide profit for the public purse - an investment like any other.

Herein lies the problem. Quite frankly, in my opinion, it is a city-wide lack of understanding of urban planning and neighbourhood building. A developer WILL NOT take the first step. Not because they are completely unaware of urban planning principles (although some certainly have no interest in it), but because in many established neighbourhoods if a developer wants to move in and do something, citizens will go mad because "greedy developers" want to ruin their neighbourhood. On top of that, the first commercial building in Neighbourhood A won't be profitable. Very few businesses will want to be the first in, and so rents / sale will be low. It's only after the area is better developed that such projects are worth the time, money and effort. Government shouldn't build these locations either, because government shouldn't be landlords. Government shouldn't be developers. Government should govern. My solution would be simple: incentives for development in the neighbourhood. Subsidies for developers who build commercial in an area. Perhaps do it AFTER discussions with the residents to try and develop support. Once the residents see the benefits (or at least are made aware that it is a GOVERNMENT INITIATIVE and not a "greedy developer") the government can offer to cover a percentage of the construction, with the agreement from the developer to maintain affordable rent for X number of years. Suddenly, with the subsidy, the development can become profitable. With low rent, a small business will have a place to set up shop. Once one business is there, it becomes easier to invite more. If government were to do this in three (arbitrary number) locations on a street, there would be some foot-traffic in the area, and perhaps the next development would be someone doing it on their own. At the very least, the city has helped to foster some small-business growth.

I'm now inviting everyone to pick this idea apart. It is essentially what the Provincial government has recently done to address the lack of affordable housing. Offer a subsidy. I know for a fact that developers bit and affordable housing has been popping up around the province because of it.

[mrjanejacobs]

I absolutely think you're on to something. The beauty in this kind of urban intervention to sponsor the local economy and small businesses, while also promoting foot traffic, growth nodes, community-building, is that the government's contribution can be rather minimalist and the political risk is fairly small as it doesn't involve large sums of money to so explicitly pass hands. It's more policy-based than a large municipal investment. They plant the seed and the private industry paired with creative small business owners will take care of the rest.

I think there are two primary angles on which this kind of dilemma can be approached: subsidies and tax-breaks to promote development, as you mentioned (however, I find that oftentimes, developers need some hand-holding to carry them through the process). A public-private partnership program at the urban scale would be extremely helpful.

Next, like the Farmer's Market concept - place-making can be a public investment and project which promotes private investment. It's more of a speculative-approach but it's often fairly well-received. Business is attracted to where people go. It's like the train-station example. Building a subway station or a train station in a neighbourhood has been proven to function as an economic catalyst, of sorts. Which is really, really cool. Within a few years of the station opening, there are usually apartment buildings being built nearby, new shops opening, new bus routes, etc. Train stations are pretty fool-proof but similar effects can be achieved with a plaza, a park or a Farmer's Market, if well planned.

I have actually often considered opening up a bar or cafe in a more defunct neighbourhood. I would promote really great parties and hopefully activate a neighbourhood by repurposing an old building. One way of attracting private investment and business owners is by proving to them that a business can thrive in its location. Of course, you are taking a (debatably) big risk if youre the person opening the first location, haha, but it's been done.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

I absolutely think you're on to something. The beauty in this kind of urban intervention to sponsor the local economy and small businesses, while also promoting foot traffic, growth nodes, community-building, is that the government's contribution can be rather minimalist and the political risk is fairly small as it doesn't involve large sums of money to so explicitly pass hands. It's more policy-based than a large municipal investment. They plant the seed and the private industry paired with creative small business owners will take care of the rest.

I think there are two primary angles on which this kind of dilemma can be approached: subsidies and tax-breaks to promote development, as you mentioned (however, I find that oftentimes, developers need some hand-holding to carry them through the process). A public-private partnership program at the urban scale would be extremely helpful.

Next, like the Farmer's Market concept - place-making can be a public investment and project which promotes private investment. It's more of a speculative-approach but it's often fairly well-received. Business is attracted to where people go. It's like the train-station example. Building a subway station or a train station in a neighbourhood has been proven to function as an economic catalyst, of sorts. Which is really, really cool. Within a few years of the station opening, there are usually apartment buildings being built nearby, new shops opening, new bus routes, etc. Train stations are pretty fool-proof but similar effects can be achieved with a plaza, a park or a Farmer's Market, if well planned.

I have actually often considered opening up a bar or cafe in a more defunct neighbourhood. I would promote really great parties and hopefully activate a neighbourhood by repurposing an old building. One way of attracting private investment and business owners is by proving to them that a business can thrive in its location. Of course, you are taking a (debatably) big risk if youre the person opening the first location, haha, but it's been done.

Out of curiosity, have you thought about what neighbourhood you might target for such a project? Same as what you expressed about? (Georgetown, Rabbittown, etc?)

Again, I know Georgetown has the Bakery and the Bar, but I don't see anyone rushing in to open something else. I also think Georgetown residents really pride themselves in that "old-town St. John's" feel (borderline NIMBY but that's another thread ) and I wonder if they are unique in their attitude. Would a bar and a bakery function well in other neighbourhoods. Perhaps I want to open a bar and a bakery in Kenmount Terrace. Any reasons why it wouldn't work there?

[SignalHillHiker]

Great convo, you two!

*****

I really do wish it was as easy as possible for entrepreneurs to set up businesses in residential areas.

But the regulations, if I understand them correctly, are so strict that even opening a corner store in a place like Kenmount Terrace could be a nightmare.

It's really unfortunate. So many of the legal requirements associated with development encourage exactly the type we don't want: expensive suburban residential.

And, when people live that way, they grow to be uncomfortable with the idea of living among businesses. And they tend to build amenities - like businesses, schools, parks, etc. often as an afterthought, and often just as spread out and suburban.

Everything on Kenmount Road today should be able to squeeze into the area between Columbus Drive and Peet Street. Easily.

But... Jane's suggestion to take the first small step, and yours that it could happen even in a place like Kenmount Terrace... that's where we need to start, yesterday.

[J_Murphy]

Does anyone know what YellowBelly are doing? If you haven't noticed, they stripped off the deck they built a couple of years ago and that area is now excavated.

[SignalHillHiker]

I think they had a broken pipe, didn't they?

[rwspencer38]

As someone who has seriously considered opening up a business, I can tell you that it is extremely difficult. As great as starting a new business in a pre-dominantly residential area would be, the likelihood of success is extremely small. I won't say it can't be done because it has been successful in other cities across the country, however, what is the motivation for opening a business in a residential area? Is it to revitalize the area in hopes of spurring commercial growth or is it to run a successful business? I would certainly hope it would be the latter! Then it begs the question of whether or not it would be a wise idea to start a business in an area with little commercial success knowing full well it would be extremely difficult given its location. It's sort of a chicken and egg situation.

The way I view it is this: If you want to create a successful business then you need to place it in the best possible spot to reach your goal. Most people typically need finanical support for their start-up costs and having delt with banks and financial supporters, most would be skeptical about the success of a lone business in a residential area.

Not saying it can't be done, but yeeessh it would be damn tough.

[Copes]

Originally Posted by rwspencer38

As someone who has seriously considered opening up a business, I can tell you that it is extremely difficult. As great as starting a new business in a pre-dominantly residential area would be, the likelihood of success is extremely small. I won't say it can't be done because it has been successful in other cities across the country, however, what is the motivation for opening a business in a residential area? Is it to revitalize the area in hopes of spurring commercial growth or is it to run a successful business? I would certainly hope it would be the latter! Then it begs the question of whether or not it would be a wise idea to start a business in an area with little commercial success knowing full well it would be extremely difficult given its location. It's sort of a chicken and egg situation.

The way I view it is this: If you want to create a successful business then you need to place it in the best possible spot to reach your goal. Most people typically need finanical support for their start-up costs and having delt with banks and financial supporters, most would be skeptical about the success of a lone business in a residential area.

Not saying it can't be done, but yeeessh it would be damn tough.

Oh, you're absolutely right. Which comes back to the need for government involvement. In the same way government would need to subsidize developers to build commercial in a primarily residential area, they would likely also need to provide incentives for a business to want to try and give it a shot there. Loans or investment are both strong incentives that mitigate the risk.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by rwspencer38

As someone who has seriously considered opening up a business, I can tell you that it is extremely difficult. As great as starting a new business in a pre-dominantly residential area would be, the likelihood of success is extremely small. I won't say it can't be done because it has been successful in other cities across the country, however, what is the motivation for opening a business in a residential area? Is it to revitalize the area in hopes of spurring commercial growth or is it to run a successful business? I would certainly hope it would be the latter! Then it begs the question of whether or not it would be a wise idea to start a business in an area with little commercial success knowing full well it would be extremely difficult given its location. It's sort of a chicken and egg situation.

The way I view it is this: If you want to create a successful business then you need to place it in the best possible spot to reach your goal. Most people typically need finanical support for their start-up costs and having delt with banks and financial supporters, most would be skeptical about the success of a lone business in a residential area.

Not saying it can't be done, but yeeessh it would be damn tough.

yup and if it is a site that's currently zoned as residential, you will need an amendment to the municipal plan including public hearings and a vote on council ... so you better be friends with those neighbors and know how to deal with traffic and parking issues that they will perceive as destroying a residential area (which they probably think has parking and traffic issues anyway).

it may be what's needed or a great idea however it is another case of in theory vs in practice

[JCE]

Originally Posted by J_Murphy

Does anyone know what YellowBelly are doing? If you haven't noticed, they stripped off the deck they built a couple of years ago and that area is now excavated.

If I remember correctly I think they might be expanding their brewery under ground under George Street.

[J_Murphy]

Originally Posted by JCE

If I remember correctly I think they might be expanding their brewery under ground under George Street.

Interesting. It didn't look like they were doing any kind of water/sewer repair which is why I asked. I thought they might be creating an exterior entrance/exit for the Underbelly.

[JCE]

Originally Posted by J_Murphy

Interesting. It didn't look like they were doing any kind of water/sewer repair which is why I asked. I thought they might be creating an exterior entrance/exit for the Underbelly.

Just took a look and found this from the November 2012 Council Agenda.

"SJMC2012-10-29/546R
It was moved by Deputy Mayor Duff; seconded by Councillor Hann: That approval be granted to sell Yellow Belly Brewery subterranean easement rights in order for them to expand their brewery operations, located approximately 12’ x 40, under the Becks Cove portion of George Street, at a rate of $30.00 per square foot (approximately $15,000.00) plus usual fees and HST.
The motion being put was unanimously carried."