The next GVRD rapid transit line?

[Metro-One]

The Lower Londsdale to Burnaby route makes the most sense to me (though the southern terminus should be Metrotown and not Brentwood). This route will service the greatest number of residents and the widest variety of potential trips / destinations, especially given that Lower Lonsdale to downtown will still have its direct sea bus service (which is already a great link). In the future this line could be extended further west into West Vancouver. All the other routes are too indirect and or service too few residents / areas to justify the cost. This route also avoids the social political dumpster fire that is East Hastings (DTES).

Second best is the blue route because it would expand mass transit downtown, including to Stanley Park, and provide service to both West and North Vancouver, but how much better would it be than the sea bus for many?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Except that (again) most Burrard Inlet traffic is coming in and out of Vancouver; Expo down Hastings makes the most sense in the short term. Shouldn't be impossible to upgrade it to an E-W to Lochdale and a N-S from Phibbs to Metrotown later on.

Originally Posted by Sheba

We've likely got years where the rapid transit plans will be where to put the next batch of RapidBus routes - and quite honestly I hope they take a hard look at the rest of the region, which doesn't have the transit ridership that CoV has because they don't have the transit network that CoV has.

And they don't have the network because they don't have the ridership: low density + spaghettified road grid + farther from the core = diminishing returns. It's a chicken or egg argument.

Backing it up with some numbers, the 95 was outperforming the 96 before the lockdown.

[WarrenC12]

I don't think we're ever getting that mythical 3rd crossing, even if it's transit-only.

[moosejaw]

Would this be an underground line or a bridge? Just for comparison San Francisco's BART line crossing the bay is over 6 miles long, 3 miles of it is tunneled under land

[Migrant_Coconut]

Both underwater and overwater are being explored, I believe.

[scottN]

As noted on the figure, the second narrows options are bridges and the others are bored tunnels. The BART tunnel is an immersed tube, but in all shortlisted alignments for crossing Burrard inlet the grades are too steep to use an immersed tube tunnel.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by ecbin

I'd be really surprised that North Van gets a line before South Van gets a East-West line. The 41 and 49 bus lines are packed and the areas around there are ripe for densification and it would connect the Canada Line (Oakridge or 49th) with the Expo Line (Joyce or Metrotown).

My concern with an east west line would be that we'd be making a Toronto-style mistake of conflating radial travel demand that loading circumferential lines (41, R4, 49, etc) to access a faster radial service (Canada Line) with straight up circumferential travel demand.

If you just rapidtrasitize the buses that are full, you can simply end up overloading the connection, when perhaps another radial would have been more appropriate, such as a Main-Fraser subway

[scottN]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

My concern with an east west line would be that we'd be making a Toronto-style mistake of conflating radial travel demand that loading circumferential lines (41, R4, 49, etc) to access a faster radial service (Canada Line) with straight up circumferential travel demand.

Compass card data should make short work of this problem by measuring bus to skytrain transfers.

But none of this actually matters. If recent history is any indication, politics will trump any technical cost / benefit analysis.

[rpvan]

Originally Posted by ecbin

I'd be really surprised that North Van gets a line before South Van gets a East-West line. The 41 and 49 bus lines are packed and the areas around there are ripe for densification and it would connect the Canada Line (Oakridge or 49th) with the Expo Line (Joyce or Metrotown).

I feel like a potential Hastings line is up there in importance with a South Van line. If built, any skytrain route down Hastings or 41/49 will likely be underground. Keeping it South Van related, instead of a 41/49 route, perhaps a connection from 22nd street to Marine Dr station could be an above ground alternative?

Other routes that should be considered within in the next 20-30 years (other than the previously mentioned north van/south van lines) include the KGB corridor in Surrey, Lougheed Highway corridor in Poco/Maple Meadows (eventually connecting with the Expo line in langley?) and a line connecting Guildford with Coquitlam central.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And they don't have the network because they don't have the ridership: low density + spaghettified road grid + farther from the core = diminishing returns. It's a chicken or egg argument.

Backing it up with some numbers, the 95 was outperforming the 96 before the lockdown.

I said "the rest of the region" and not 'Surrey'. There are plenty of areas that could do with some improved service after this pandemic is over.

Originally Posted by rpvan

I feel like a potential Hastings line is up there in importance with a South Van line. If built, any skytrain route down Hastings or 41/49 will likely be underground. Keeping it South Van related, instead of a 41/49 route, perhaps a connection from 22nd street to Marine Dr station could be an above ground alternative?

Other routes that should be considered within in the next 20-30 years (other than the previously mentioned north van/south van lines) include the KGB corridor in Surrey, Lougheed Highway corridor in Poco/Maple Meadows (eventually connecting with the Expo line in langley?) and a line connecting Guildford with Coquitlam central.

I think Hastings is more important than South Van for a Skytrain line. A bigger thing is adding more RapidBus and limited stop Express routes to feed into the Skytrain lines.

[jollyburger]

What's the point of creating a new rapid transit line and keeping the SeaBuses? As much as the Park Royal/Second Narrow stops make logical sense the most density anywhere on the North Shore that might get redeveloped for a transit line in the next 40-50 years is Lonsdale.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Because the SeaBuses are still a straight line between Lonsdale and downtown - a recently upgraded straight line, at that. SkyTrain's job here would be adding capacity and connections rather than a faster route.

Originally Posted by rpvan

Other routes that should be considered within in the next 20-30 years (other than the previously mentioned north van/south van lines) include the KGB corridor in Surrey, Lougheed Highway corridor in Poco/Maple Meadows (eventually connecting with the Expo line in langley?) and a line connecting Guildford with Coquitlam central.

Good shortlist, though these are probably in the 30-50 year range.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I said "the rest of the region" and not 'Surrey'. There are plenty of areas that could do with some improved service after this pandemic is over.

The SoF's only one of many; anything between SFU and Deer Lake, west of Lynn Valley or north of Eagle Ridge would be lucky to see more than tri-hourly service. Willingdon needs a RapidBus, maybe Steveston, but that's about all I can see.

[jollyburger]

And Richmond wants something out to Steveston

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

My concern with an east west line would be that we'd be making a Toronto-style mistake of conflating radial travel demand that loading circumferential lines (41, R4, 49, etc) to access a faster radial service (Canada Line) with straight up circumferential travel demand.

The network effect benefits and raises traffic levels on all transit lines. You have to build a mix of intersecting lines in order to maximize the overall effectiveness of the transit system.

This is clearly demonstrated in the construction of the Broadway line, which will bridge the gap between the Broadway/Commercial Drive station on the Expo line and the Broadway station on the Canada Line. With that gap filled in the Skytrain network becomes a far more viable option for people in the east to access the airport and for people in the south and west to access SFU and Coquitlam. And it will better balance traffic and capacity on the lines entering the downtown core by allowing for the offload of overcapacity crowds on the Expo Line to the Canada Line.

You can't build just radial lines, and in fact the best network is a grid system that allows trips between any two Skytrain stations to be made with no more than one transfer.

[Migrant_Coconut]

AFAIK the problem with Sheppard is being a line to nowhere - hook it up to the busier end of Yonge-University, and it becomes twice as useful.

Likewise, a 41st line would need to be anchored by both the Canada and the Expo; of course it's going to fail if it only goes from Kerrisdale to Oakridge.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

You can't build just radial lines, and in fact the best network is a grid system that allows trips between any two Skytrain stations to be made with no more than one transfer.

I'd question whether we actually need more radials; East, SE and South are covered, and North/NE and West are in progress. Sounds like all that's left IS circumferential lines (that, or extending what we already have).

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

What's the point of creating a new rapid transit line and keeping the SeaBuses? As much as the Park Royal/Second Narrow stops make logical sense the most density anywhere on the North Shore that might get redeveloped for a transit line in the next 40-50 years is Lonsdale.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because the SeaBuses are still a straight line between Lonsdale and downtown - a recently upgraded straight line, at that. SkyTrain's job here would be adding capacity and connections rather than a faster route.

Yes, while the SeaBus of course cannot be faster than a matching SkyTrain line would be, such a line is unlikely to be built due to the topography of the harbour. Thus, the SeaBus remains as an efficient and convenient direct service from "downtown" North Vancouver to downtown Vancouver. The fact that it is such a short ride to begin with also makes a case for retaining the ferry; at only 12 minutes by SeaBus, shaving a few minutes off with rapid transit won't justify the enormous cost. Factor in the tourist benefits and I'd be really surprised to see the ferry disappear any time soon.

[casper]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

And Richmond wants something out to Steveston

Perhaps use the same streetcar technology that would be deployed into Vancouver down Arbutus and the Fraser. That will help reduce costs by buying trains in bulk.

I vote for the same cars are Calgary. Not the toy trains that they have but into Ottawa.

[rpvan]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Willingdon needs a RapidBus, maybe Steveston, but that's about all I can see.

Something along Willingdon and out to Stevenson would be the next best choices after the Metrotown-Richmond and Scott Road corridor rapid bus routes begin service in a couple years.

[ecbin]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

And Richmond wants something out to Steveston

They're going to deeply regret single tracking Skytrain in the years to come.

[DKaz]

Did Translink even have a say on that single track design?