The not so Great Canadian White Elephant Thread

[esquire]

One could argue that Olympic Stadium is not really a white elephant. After all, it did what it was supposed to do... host an Olympic Games. Most Olympic Stadiums tend to have afterlives that pale somewhat in comparison. The Big O actually did reasonably well, hosting two, and for a short time three major teams for a decade after the 1976 games, before settling into its role as a charmingly awkward baseball stadium for another 20 years after that. It's really only the last 15 or so years where it has been sitting empty and with no real purpose anymore.

A true white elephant Olympic Stadium would have never hosted the Olympic Games.

It seems to me, 4 pages into this thread, that Mirabel has to be the hands-down winner.

[ScreamingViking]

Some people used to say Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre (originally named Copps Coliseum) was a waste because it never did what it was intended to do, at least in large part -- attract the NHL. More than 17,000 seats, rarely filled to capacity... the AHL and OHL hockey teams that have used it draw about 5,000 on a decent night, usually less. But it wasn't very expensive even for the mid-1980s ($40+ million) and has allowed the city to host large concerts and sporting events. Curtains were installed to cover the upper tier and try to make the lower bowl feel more intimate. The arena is going to be extensively renovated over the next couple of years.

Another is Hamilton airport. In the 1980s it was expanded in anticipation of attracting more passenger flights, including a new runway and terminal. The terminal was still fairly modest, and the whole project cost $50 to $60 million back then. Some argued it was just pork-barrel politics to feed the ego of a local MP, because the passenger market was well-served by Toronto's airport (about a 65 km drive from the centre of town) and major airlines weren't going to offer duplicate serviced here. Smaller ones came and went, offering flights to a very limited set of destinations. In the mid-90s the city made a long term deal with a private operator, who have turned it into a successful cargo facility and passenger use has increased to the point the terminal has had some changes made to it. For a time it was WestJet's eastern hub, until they moved almost all their services to Pearson. Now it's mainly used by Swoop and other low-cost airlines, with charter services as well.

I'd not call either a White Elephant today, and both were rather modest investments that have benefited the city over the longer term. The airport and the commercial/industrial development it continues to spur now make it a major generator of jobs and economic activity.

Hamilton's Eaton Centre is probably the only local example I can think of that was truly a waste. A 3-level mall opened in 1990, connected to an existing mall built during the wave of 1970s downtown redevelopment, it was only semi-successful for a few years before becoming a sad space the city eventually moved some offices into. When Eaton's died it was re-christened the Hamilton City Centre. With some renos I think it could have become nice, if another use could be found for it. It's about to be torn down for a condo complex.

For a while we did have this, though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

One could argue that Olympic Stadium is not really a white elephant. After all, it did what it was supposed to do... host an Olympic Games. Most Olympic Stadiums tend to have afterlives that pale somewhat in comparison. The Big O actually did reasonably well, hosting two, and for a short time three major teams for a decade after the 1976 games, before settling into its role as a charmingly awkward baseball stadium for another 20 years after that. It's really only the last 15 or so years where it has been sitting empty and with no real purpose anymore.

A true white elephant Olympic Stadium would have never hosted the Olympic Games.

It seems to me, 4 pages into this thread, that Mirabel has to be the hands-down winner.

Yeah, the Big O stings my heart a little as a Quebec taxpayer that indirectly owns that thing, but in terms of its service life it hasn't been too bad when you compare it to many other stadiums elsewhere in North America and around the world.

It's also hosted countless football and soccer games, concerts and other events over the years.

My guess is that most NFL stadiums in the US, especially the outdoor ones in the northern tier of the country, get a lot less use in their lifetimes.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by esquire

One could argue that Olympic Stadium is not really a white elephant. After all, it did what it was supposed to do... host an Olympic Games. Most Olympic Stadiums tend to have afterlives that pale somewhat in comparison. The Big O actually did reasonably well, hosting two, and for a short time three major teams for a decade after the 1976 games, before settling into its role as a charmingly awkward baseball stadium for another 20 years after that. It's really only the last 15 or so years where it has been sitting empty and with no real purpose anymore.

A true white elephant Olympic Stadium would have never hosted the Olympic Games.

And the olympic stadium is not just the stadium, it is the multiple facilities on site, the tower, etc which are all occupied. The tower is now all occupied with offices, there is the biodome, the planetarium, a movie theatre, multiple training facilities (used by Canadian athletes), a huge sports centre, the olympic swimming pool... etc. The site during summer is used for multiple festivals. It is definitively an asset to the city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Yep, and I'd much rather live in Copenhagen or Stockholm (or Montreal) than Frankfurt. But the downtowns of each are full of people reporting on what happens in Frankfurt, where the opposite isn't true.

Point taken.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Some people used to say Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre (originally named Copps Coliseum) was a waste because it never did what it was intended to do, at least in large part -- attract the NHL. More than 17,000 seats, rarely filled to capacity... the AHL and OHL hockey teams that have used it draw about 5,000 on a decent night, usually less. But it wasn't very expensive even for the mid-1980s ($40+ million) and has allowed the city to host large concerts and sporting events. Curtains were installed to cover the upper tier and try to make the lower bowl feel more intimate. The arena is going to be extensively renovated over the next couple of years.

I guess one could argue that major league arenas that never attracted major league teams (Copps Coliseum, Saskatchewan Place, Centre Videotron) are white elephants, but even then the most you could say is that only the upper halves of those arenas are white elephants since the lower halves are regularly used by the home teams and for other events.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, the Big O stings my heart a little as a Quebec taxpayer that indirectly owns that thing, but in terms of its service life it hasn't been too bad when you compare it to many other stadiums elsewhere in North America and around the world.

It's also hosted countless football and soccer games, concerts and other events over the years.

My guess is that most NFL stadiums in the US, especially the outdoor ones in the northern tier of the country, get a lot less use in their lifetimes.

Given that the Big O might have a 100+ year lifespan (honestly!), the optics look a lot better. Ironically, its lack of a regular tenant might actually be key to its longevity and the costs don't look near as bad with a hugely long amortization.

Now the City of Montreal can say: "Look, we have a super-venue for the handful of times a year we need it. We can't blow the budget on something new that nobody will use. Knocking it over means we spend a pile of money and get nothing."

So, in a twisted way, the Big Owe may actually save more money in the long run, even if it hurt in the short-term.

[MolsonExport]

all the comments about the Big O are true. But it cost so. much. money. The Olympic Stadium’s total cost is more than $1.6 billion. Repairing the roof almost cost as much as a new stadium (however, demolishing the Big O would cost a prohibitive amount of money). Don't forget that the poor fit for Baseball (and Football) is perhaps the main reason why the Expos left (and why the Alouettes decamped to Molson stadium). Don't forget that massive concrete chunks of the Big O have fallen into the stadium bowl.

The $1.61 billion price tag (with inflation) is the second most expensive stadium ever built, after London’s Wembley Stadium.

The stadium would cost almost another $1 billion to demolish

https://dailyhive.com/montreal/olympic-stadium-facts

As a former smoker, I paid more than my share of excise taxes* to fund the Big O. As a Montrealer, I also paid in terms of property tax. After the Olympics, I think most of the debt was transferred to the city of Montreal, so I don't know how much Quebeckers outside of Montreal were on the hook for, outside of the cigarette excise tax.

*In May 1976, the Quebec government introduced a special “tobacco tax” to help recoup its investment into the stadium. By 2006, a total of 8% of the tax revenue earned from cigarette sales were put into the Olympic Stadium.

The Olympic Installations Board says the roof is unsafe during heavy rainfall of more than 8 centimetres (3 inches) of snow, which is not uncommon during Montreal winters. On the rare occasions where winter activities are planned, they must be cancelled if heavy snowfall or rain is in the forecast, as is the case with the postponement of the Montreal Impact home opener in 2014.

The committee says the roof rips 50 to 60 times per year and, as of May 2017, has had more than 7,400 tears that have been repaired.

https://dailyhive.com/montreal/olympic-stadium-facts

on the other hand

Pink Floyd attracted the largest paid crowd to the Olympic Stadium. On July 6, 1977, 78,322 paid to see the band rock out at the stadium.

I saw Pink Floyd in 1988 (May 11) at the Big O. Second Row, dead centre (I had a connection to get extremely good seats). Best concert I ever saw, hands-down.

[Rico Rommheim]

Just the fact the the Floyd played at the big O, and that this was the single biggest attendance of any stadium in canadian history, and that this specific concert was the one in which Roger Waters spat on a rowdy fan and that this incident led to Waters penning The Wall, makes it all worthwhile at the end.

[esquire]

Yes Olympic Stadium cost a fortune, but it is really more than just a stadium, it's an entire complex... it came with a world-class competition pool and velodrome (since repurposed into the Biodome) and a tower. I'm not sure if the Metro station was built into the cost too. But that's a lot. I'm not saying it was great value for money, but there was a lot wrapped up in that billion-plus of expenditures.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Just the fact the the Floyd played at the big O, and that this was the single biggest attendance of any stadium in canadian history, and that this specific concert was the one in which Roger Waters spat on a rowdy fan and that this incident led to Waters penning The Wall, makes it all worthwhile at the end.

Quite. The Wall is a masterpiece, and is priceless.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yes Olympic Stadium cost a fortune, but it is really more than just a stadium, it's an entire complex... it came with a world-class competition pool and velodrome (since repurposed into the Biodome) and a tower. I'm not sure if the Metro station was built into the cost too. But that's a lot. I'm not saying it was great value for money, but there was a lot wrapped up in that billion-plus of expenditures.

If the cost of the leaning tower and observation deck is included that makes for a stronger value proposition too. A development like that would have been expensive even on its own.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess one could argue that major league arenas that never attracted major league teams (Copps Coliseum, Saskatchewan Place, Centre Videotron) are white elephants, but even then the most you could say is that only the upper halves of those arenas are white elephants since the lower halves are regularly used by the home teams and for other events.

Sure nice to have that space when needed though.

Without it, Copps/FOC would not have hosted Canada Cup games and other large sports events, concerts by big-name performers, and other stuff that filled it to capacity. The economic impacts of such things are highly debated, but the city could not have gotten them without the large arena.

And now that the greater Toronto and Golden Horseshoe urban area has grown so much, the arena is one of a limited number of facilities of its size in the wider region and doesn't just serve the Hamilton market. Thankfully this is what makes the business case for the renovations that are badly needed, being led by the private sector.

[phone]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Townsend, Ontario: A planned city of up to 250,000 near the north shore of Lake Erie that never got to more than 1,200:

This one really fascinates me. Never heard about Townsend before, thanks for sharing. The place gives off a really creepy, liminal feeling. It's not quite a ghost town as it appears to be generally occupied to the extent that it was actually built out, but it has a ghostly presence on the map nevertheless. A little like a living shadow, perhaps.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by phone

This one really fascinates me. Never heard about Townsend before, thanks for sharing. The place gives off a really creepy, liminal feeling. It's not quite a ghost town as it appears to be generally occupied to the extent that it was actually built out, but it has a ghostly presence on the map nevertheless. A little like a living shadow, perhaps.

Too bad it never took off... it seems to me that Southern Ontario could use another city in that 250,000 range to give the GTHA region some relief.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I was just there in May.
The plaza "Waterloo Public Square" in front of it is pretty busy with plenty of foot traffic or people just hanging out and people watching, there's two bars/restaurants fronting King (me and my buddy drank on the patio fronting the plaza) and "The Shops" has a grocery store and Shoppers. Not to mention there's constant buses and the ion light rail dropping people off right there.
Not vibrant per se but not exactly dead in my opinion.

Waterloo Town Square is actually a pretty good example of revitalization. It used to be bigger extending all the way down to William St. and was desolate. As I recall, while Valumart was still there, the other end was anchored by a Liquidation World and there was a depressing office block that I'm pretty sure was vacant. The entire thing was surrounded by a sea of parking lots.

I forget the exact date that they started redeveloping it, but it was probably around the mid-2000s. The end result is renewed street-fronting retail along King and Willis Way, a very well-used public square, and the remaining stub of the mall much better off with street-fronting retail along Willis Way.

There are definitely still improvements that can be made. It's my understanding that the area between the LRT and Erb St. will be redeveloped soon and it's only a matter of time before the remaining mall bit is too. But anyone who visited it 20 years ago and then again today wouldn't recognize the place.

What it used to be:

[ssiguy]

Mirabel is the obvious winner when it comes to government largess............there is no second place.

In terms of private investment, London's Westmount deserves a very honourable mention. Although at first it was a great investment as up until the 80s, it was London's largest and most successful mall but then when nuts on expansion in the 80s and since 2000 has been completely dead space.

For Vancouver it's definitely the Chinatown "International" Village. It is a true relic of the 90s and is only international if you consider a Food Court or McDonald's and Starbucks as international cuisine. The mall is completely vacant and it's ONLY redeeming feature is the Cineplex theatre on the 3rd floor. No one ever goes there and with good reason, it's dead space.

[Acajack]

Other notable ones that people might want to expand upon:

Newfoundland:

Sprung greenhouses

Come-by-Chance oil refinery

New Brunswick:

Bricklin automobile manufacturing

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Other notable ones that people might want to expand upon:

Newfoundland:

Sprung greenhouses

Come-by-Chance oil refinery

New Brunswick:

Bricklin automobile manufacturing

Newfoundland has one giant White Elephant that I'm surprised no one has posted yet:

[kool maudit]

That thing is so incredibly crude, I can't believe it's real.